Theme Authors: How can we help you?

[Marcus Forsberg]

As part of a potential theme site renovation, we'd like some input from the people who use the site the most: you. While we as a team know what works best for us, what really matters is how easy and helpful we can make the experience for you. With that in mind, I'd like to ask a few questions - feel free to answer any or all of them, so that we can use your comments to improve the site for theme authors.

1. What resources would help you to develop themes?

2. Is there any information or statistics you'd like to be able to see?

3. If you could have one new feature on the theme site, what would it be?

4. Finally, what could be improved on the current site?

Thank you.

[Shortie]

Hi Nas and All

This is coming from a newbie theme developer it has been one of those things which I started mainly because I wanted something original for my site which was easy to maintain which in turn developed in to a hobby and hence where I am today - so don't shoot the noobie

A couple of things I would suggest and then I will answer your Q's

1. Get rid of the stats - I know this is hard but people ego trip and if they are in the top five they think they are God in reality a theme suites someone's environment so what is good for the goose is not necessary good for the gander - just cos a theme has been downloaded 100000 times does not means it is good (no offence Theme Dev's) but people want to make their site unique so if you go to a SMF site and they are all using theme X does that mean it is good

2. Just changing colours of a theme to get another one into the system should be a no no I have done this (so hands up) and found it again to be beating your own trumpet no delivering some thing unique.

3. Now this is the main gripe - if you create a theme / mod  "YOU SUPPORT IT" there nothing worse that seeing a developer add the tag line "DO NOT PM ME FOR SUPPORT" what was the point of creating a theme for all to use and then just wait for people to post in the support Thread - I know it is best to share but some people are new to SMF and don't want to ask publicly - in my case my door is all ways open - this also goes for the comment "I have an issue with your Mod" and the answer is Ask the theme developer if it doesn't work - NOT VERY constructive for a community which is designed to help people - or do I have this bit wrong ?

Okay off my high horse and I will get to your Questions

What resources would help you to develop themes?

an area where people are willing to share their developments and techniques I mean really share not a case of "If you want to find out how X works Just Google it" - more involvement there is the better all round people will still hack themes to get what they want so why make it difficult - this is a community at the end of the day

Have a library of theme functions - the first thing I have done with curve is take each element out into its own function this means that with a little CSS you can place that display element anywhere you like making development easier I know I am not good at this but does help - What I mean is have a number of functions i.e. avatar, user info, copyright etc etc and then you can just call those and place the function in a small amount of CSS - hope that makes sense

Is there any information or statistics you'd like to be able to see?

See the first para

I think the rest is actual covered in the above

NOTE I am more than happy to have a constructive discussion here BUT DO NOT want a flame war so my last point is lets talk and move this forward SMF is moving up the charts from a forum perspective which is good so lets keep it going in that direction But I do know of sites that are migration from SMF due to the Lack of genuine help as they feel they are not one of the boys or Girls and SMF is becoming a closed community

Okay No offence meant to any one just starting this off

Shortie

[bullbreedluverz]

im unsure about what resources would help theme designers - the proposed .psd of curve (dunno if this will include core too) is probably the most desireable resource i can think of

i wholeheartedly agree with shorties number 2 - over the last year or so ive seen plenty of theme colour variations submitted, just changing font colour or windowbg colour doesnt constitute a new theme - ive made some variations based of the same "template" using different font colours, different backgrounds, different images i.e. catbg's, titlebg's etc and ive been told they are just variants and cant be submitted seperatly yet others dont seem to get told this, there needs to be consistancy instead of 1 rule for 1 and another for someone else

again i agree with shortie with the theme support - if a designer isnt supporting a theme then the theme should be removed, simple as that, if you make something and it has issues and you dont support it then whats the point in support threads, people are entrusting that when they install a theme that if they have issues or problems that they can come to the theme author and recieve adequate help and advice - some authors are active daily yet dont answer posts made in their themes support threads or just give useless answers like "i dont know" - you made the theme if theres a problem and you dont know how to fix it then go and find out or remove the theme

error logs - these should be checked when theme approvals are done, admittedly i never used to check these when i first started making themes but now ive learned a bit more ive started checking the error logs - i have forgot sometimes to check the final product  and that has lead to people getting errors on their site which frankley i dont want as a designer- if the error logs are checked on theme submissions then it will save a lot of problems for members who download and install themes, people who a lot of the time dont have the technical experience/knowledge to know how to fix these errors end up with an error log flooded with errors and it can cause some panic for them seeing page after page of errors - im more than happy to be told that 1 of my themes is returning errors in the logs and to rectify it but if no1 is told to do this then you will ALWAYS get themes that generate errors - doing this will help improve the way themes are constructed which in the long run improves SMF themes overall and improves members user end experience of SMF by having themes that DONT return constant errors - if SMF cuztomization team dont check for errors then you are just allowing people to make themes that have problems which at the end the day reflects back upon SMF

im not sure about new features as such but ive have thought it would be usefull to have a theme suggestion section - as a designer it can be difficult to give the user's themes they want and need and maybe having a theme suggestion section would help designer to give people what they want - unlike the help wanted section where individuals ask for a theme just for them the suggestion board could be for people to give there ideas for a theme and if other members add theyre desire for that theme then an author could then make that theme knowing there is a desire for it so that a requested theme isnt just made for 1 person but made available for everyone - this may or may not be a good idea, its hard to tell unless its implemented, ive had several requests from people to make certain style themes and it would be nice to judge if there is a general wish to see a certain theme made plus there is always theme requests popping up in the Graphics and Templates section such as is there an xbox theme, is there a clans theme, is there a game based theme etc etc,  if these were placed in a specific topic, maybe a childboard, then it will help designers to give members what they want - i'm about making themes people desire and a lot time its the niche themes that dont get made and its generic themes that get made again and again (which there is a desire for so im not knocking anyone for that) but if people could request a theme and others show a desire for it then it will help designers but also help SMF as a whole to give the members what they want as isnt that what SMF and this site is all about

ditch the preview board...... its a waste of time, even if you post a preview hardley anyone gives there views so theres not much point having it - at first i thought this was good as a way to judge if a theme is desired by members but as hardley anyone gives feedback even if you post a preview you still dont know if its a desired theme

[Arantor]

Some interesting comments there.

Just one comment I would add - and believe me I understand your frustration, but I'd also like to explain why some people who create customizations (be it themes or mods) do so.

It comes back to support - if we were to receive PMs and provide support based on that, we'd never have time to do other things, because we'd be flooded with PMs. Additionally, where does the line get drawn? Would you expect me to support something I'd written a year ago and not updated since then?

Every theme (and mod, for that matter) gets a dedicated thread where any support questions should be added, the bonus of which is that if two people have the same problem, it can be answered once. Plus if the author disappears for any reason, others may be able to help.

[Shortie]

It comes back to support - if we were to receive PMs and provide support based on that, we'd never have time to do other things, because we'd be flooded with PMs. Additionally, where does the line get drawn? Would you expect me to support something I'd written a year ago and not updated since then?

I like you comments and are most welcome

But this statement comes down to another view point if a theme is downloaded and there are only one or two comments made does that show that the theme is good and does not require support - Quality in the first degree - we have all made mistakes but to me a theme which has been downloaded say 2000 times and there are no issues is a good theme

Just a comment

Shortie

[Arantor]

I can't disagree with that. But what I will say is that, especially for 1.1, the majority of support issues with themes don't appear in the theme thread, but in the main support boards, where people need to modify a theme to add buttons/changes to it for mods.

[Shortie]

Hands Up

Cannot disagree with that so maybe there is and education problem - post where the post should be

I know that SMF is run by volunteers but a little more policing may rectify this problem and keep things a little more organised

Just another comment but moderators should Moderate not support I know it is against the nature as most people would just love to add a helping hand but think of professions in the real world the police do not tell you how to drive they just abide by the rules and give you a ticket

Shortie

Had a thought as it is Friday Here

Have a new new permissions level - "The SMF Police" sorry could not resist

[Arantor]

I know that SMF is run by volunteers but a little more policing may rectify this problem and keep things a little more organised

It is beginning to happen. Remember - all Team members (e.g. Support Team, Customizer Team etc) do have moderation powers. But it's figuring out where something should be.

Someone adds a mod to their forum, the mod needs a new tab being added manually to the menu - whose's responsibility is it to support? The themer, for creating the theme? The modder for writing the mod? Or the support/customization teams who just generally provide support?

I do think there is some merit in encouraging communication - I know it's put people off the idea of modding/theming because of the problems of having to endlessly (and I do mean that; some people bump 2-3 year old mod threads for support, even though it is hopelessly unmaintained).

[SoLoGHoST]

Perhaps this is just me, but I would like to see a dedicated section of SMF for Mod Devs and a dedicated section for Theme Devs.  Whether it be section/categories, boards, topics, or whatever.  Thing is, we are trying to keep up with the changes of SMF, and would be nice if we could share what we have learned with other Mod/Theme Devs so they can benefit from this when updating their mods/themes for RC2.  But ofcourse, mod devs and theme devs need to be defined, so I would go with those who have created atleast 3 mods/themes or more to have access to this section/category/board/topic.  Just my 2 cents...

Cheers

[Arantor]

Perhaps this is just me, but I would like to see a dedicated section of SMF for Mod Devs and a dedicated section for Theme Devs.

Technically, that's what Graphics and Templates / SMF Coding Discussion is about anyway - somewhere to ask questions and give answers.

I can see the merit of a board for experienced modders/themers.

Really though, what we're trying to do here is how to help you make more themes, more mods, what we can do to simplify that process and so that everyone spends less time discussing or working with a system and more time creating.

[SoLoGHoST]

Yeah, I know what you are saying.  And you are definitely right in this.  So, I would scratch that idea than.  Wasn't thinking straight for a sec...lol

Ok, for Theme Developers, I suggest a graphical display of offsets that show exactly what is what and how it relates to the RC2 buttons, corners, etc. for the CSS Sprites that are being used.  This would make it much easier for Theme Devs to see what x,y offset as well as the width in the image, for each element throughout SMF.  As they will have to create their images for this as well, so it will be extremely difficult finding out where each width/height, and x,y offset for everything throughout SMF RC2 without a little help on this via a graphical display of the images breaking each part of the image down to how it applies in RC2.  Ofcourse this is a lot of work, so I would be very proud and honored to help with this

Cheers

[Deaks]

remember there is the themes preview board where you can post your designs and get help and suggestions.

http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?board=178.0

As for stars this is a personal choice, some sites like stars others dont, there is nothing we can really do on this one sorry

[TwitchisMental]

I know one thing I would love to see in smf for theming. That is a more basic css and html editor. 


Kind of like mybb,but not as limited.(omg their theme system is so freaking limited...)

[Antechinus]

More basic but not limited? Ok. That sounds easy.

[WillyP]

A big benefit to getting people started with themeing would be a super-commented version of the default theme.  ie, lets say you wanted to change the menu.  Inspect the menu in firebug and you see a comment at the beginning of the menu telling you '/sources/subs.php line 4950' (or whatever it is)  And a common string so you could do a search when you are done to find and remove the excess commenting.  The comments would have to be html comments in the generated html.

[Antechinus]

Why html comments? Better to use php comments if you were going to do this.

[Antechinus]

Oh and for the record, I do think the basic idea is sound. Quite a lot of work to do a really good job of it though.

[WillyP]

Why html comments? Better to use php comments if you were going to do this.

The idea is to see the comments in the source, and then you would know what file to edit. You won't see comments in php until after you've found the file.  So, lets say I want to add a link in the drop-down menu, I look at the menu in the source, and I see a comment, 'Add items to this menu in /sources/subs.php around line 460'.  Now I don't have to open 30 files trying to remember where I edited the menu, then give up and go find the tutorial I know I've seen somewhere... Good thing I bookmarked it.    Some one who makes a lot of themes won't need this, but if you just want to customize the theme on your own site, or are just getting started, it could save a lot of time.

But yeah, I do agree, it's probably more work than it's worth.  It's one of those things where you say 'oh i might do that if i get bored enuf' but you never get that bored!

[TwitchisMental]

More basic but not limited? Ok. That sounds easy.

No no by limited I mean allow the use of php and such. In MyBB editor you cannot use php without a freaking plugin..

[kawboy_zx10r]

I was customizing my forum's theme and found I was jumping back and forth a lot to get the colors right...  so I wrote a quick and dirty app in vb6 that accepts hex or decimal inputs for rgb colors and returns the equivalent in hex or dec...  i.e...  enter a decimal number and the hex is displayed or vice versa.  I got interested and updated it to display the color that was currently entered,  enabled the windows color picker and added scrolls to change the numbers.  Now you can enter the numbers directly in hex or decimal... select a color from the picker or simply scroll to the color you want and have it displayed as both hex/dec..
Not much validation.. if you enter an "illegal" number it simply ignores it, or sets it to zero...  if anyone's interested, let me know and I'll email it to you.