Serious questions for the team

[Norv]

Arantor: As I said, the help is appreciated. Whether you believe it or not, it was indeed helpful and you have my thanks for that. I realize very well how frustrating it is to have no feedback. I hope I can make things feel more rewarding for you as every potential contributor, and I am working on that for a while now, along with other issues.
However, the drama is not appreciated, nor is looking selectively at things and declaring them generic.There were issues taken care of, and issues not taken care of. There were a few taken care of, - too few comparing to other times - in my opinion as well (definitely), but that is not to say people did not work on them. Every single one who did has my thanks, specially because it *is* a thankless job, moreso than some others IMHO.

In any case, I *am* exactly taking stock of the situation. I *do* appreciate telling things as you see them, and I do agree with the content of some of them.

That said, Kat may be right, too.
A bunch of righteous people we have here.

[kat]

Ta.

[Arantor]

I am having a go, a little, but not at any one individual. And maybe I'm being dramatic because I'm fed up of raising such issues in a non dramatic way and not hearing anything in return.

There's a LOT of things that have to be done around here. And to state that they're being "constantly monitored" when it's quite apparent that's not the case riles people like me up.

To be honest, Norv, you and I have never seen eye to eye, nor do I suspect we ever will, and I've always had the distinct impression you don't like my gung-ho attitude to getting things done, but seriously, this is just like mod/theme approvals. It's a job that no-one wants to do but if those that had the knowledge checked in occasionally (and I'm saying one or two a day team wide here, not one a day a person), it wouldn't be such a bad task.

There is a board of hundreds of topics that suitably knowledgeable people have not looked at, some of the bugs in there are serious, some of them less so. But all the time the board grows in its current unmaintained fashion it looks worse - because on the one hand there are bugs in there that need to be fixed, and on the other all the time bugs aren't being moved to Mantis it looks like things are improving when that may or may not be the case.

But it says something when bug reports don't get put on the tracker after months. Or even when a suitable patch is provided. There are a LOT of people who have badges (and remember, team + beta testers + Friends as far as I'm aware) who could help the project by going through and moving things on to the tracker to get a better sense of where we are with 2.0.

There are some people who are saying RC3 is 'stable enough'. Except that there's 80 confirmed and possibly approaching 150 unconfirmed/unverified bugs.

I would argue that the one that no-one wants to admit is a bug, regarding attachment memory leaking is a serious bug, but again, what do I know, and surprise enough, it's not on the tracker despite me stating it's a regression, and providing supporting comments to that effect and arguing with people who do have the ability to add it on.

The underlying point though. Whether I'm having a go or not, the fact remains that the bug is not being looked after properly and it feels like that's the state of play with SMF generally.

On a personal level I'm fuming that a relatively small patch for a confirmed bug hasn't even been COMMENTED ON by the dev team, let alone applied after 4 months. While that's an isolated case, the fact is that many of those reports are MONTHS old without any formal recognition of the problem, or any other real resolution for that matter.

It makes me wonder why I bothered writing patches in the first place, or why I bothered trying to help to the best of my current capacity, if no-one's going to do anything with it, or leave it to stew until someone actually does something.

Saying that feedback's appreciated is all well and good but feedback needs to be acted on, and I've had numerous people over the last few months telling me my feedback is useful and appreciated then carrying on doing what they were doing before, which is actually worse than not hearing anything.

I gave a lot of time and energy to this project. I know it's more than some and less than others, and I've been fortunate that I've been able to donate the time to this project because ultimately it deserves care and attention.




I've had two years of no-one listening to me in real life and sending off endless job applications, I'm more than used to not getting feedback. I'm even so comfortable now with the idea that I'm not going to get feedback so that when I do it's actually a pleasant surprise. But in an environment where everyone is supposed to work together, for a common goal, that means feedback. I'm not just talking about Bug Reports at this point. I'm talking about virtually everything I participated in over the last few months, from MOTM discussions to mod approvals to things I asked for feedback on that would benefit the team and the project.

Every single one of those went the same way, and since there are only two common factors in that - SMF and me, I can only conclude that I'm the one who is permanently in the wrong, and thus I think now is the time for me to stop trying to support this project here, because I can see that nothing I say is going to make the slightest bit of difference. More than once I've tried to push aside my resentment of such things and convince myself - or be convinced by others - that it's going to work out, that this is only temporary and that I shouldn't take it personally. But when time after time after time it occurs, I can do nothing but take it personally because I am forced to conclude that I am the one in the wrong, and thus, finally the desire to support SMF is gone.

I will continue to work on SimpleDesk but not because I'm supporting SMF, instead I'm doing it because that's a project I actually believe in things happening on. Though I suspect the bulk of that is because I'm gung-ho and unstable and am content to spend hours making something.

I look forward to 2.0 final, hope it works out for you.

[TurtleKicker]

Summary...

Me: "There are problems"

Team: "Yes, there are problems. We're doing the best we can but we don't have enough help."

Potential help: "We'd help more if anyone seemed to notice and showed some appreciation of the work we're donating."

Does that pretty much sum it up?

While I'm glad that some at least on the team are willing to admit to the problems, that doesn't fix them. Fixing them is not so much a technical issue as a people issue, and while Arantor's frustrations perhaps taint the tone of his words at times, his points are valid. The SMF team should be courting anyone and everyone who is willing to show efforts at helping... especially at this point in the drama sequence. A lot of bad blood was instilled and it's really not ok to be casually-dismissive of people still trying to help, then on the other side to be lamenting the lack of help and using it as the (for lack of a better, less-harsh term) excuse when the problems are mentioned.

We know the team is bleeding talent, and every departure slows things down all the more. People like SD and Norv recognize the problem and are willing to admit to it. That's the first step in healing. But what is being done? We're constantly told the reason is not enough help, but then the people who want to help are constantly telling us they're being ignored or treated poorly.

There's a problem here beyond the number of bugs or the small number of people on the team.

[Norv]

Well, quite accurately put, sremick. As I was trying to say, I am actually aware of that for a while now... of the people-side of it, and I am trying to find solutions for allowing more people to help AND to feel it more rewarding for them when they do. Do note please (Arantor, as well, please) that the developers too, like the rest of the team, are not *required* to jump in and make it happen immediately, when people expect things, including feedback... (yes I know as well that there are delays that seem unacceptable). But anyway that's only one aspect (one difficulty) of the story and it *can* be solved. It does not make people's frustrations necessary or excused, not at all. These frustrations are real and we *are* looking at ways to make the process more rewarding for potential contributors. And yes, I think we may be losing contributors if we do not make it easy enough and rewarding enough for them to contribute.
That is not to say that our efforts, when successful and implemented, will be guaranteed to please everyone, though... But then again, nothing is.

[trebul]

I don't think Arantor wants a reward, but rather acknowledgment of his work and actions to be taken when he offered a fix.

If someone not on the development team can help fix a bug why not let them? I think more open communication might help. I don't know what goes on behinds the scene but it doesn't take very long to thank someone for their work.

[Cassiel]

[my 2 cents]
I think that there are too many different responsibilities within the different teams. We have the Cust team working on the new Cust site, having to look through mods, etc. I think that things would could be accomplished a lot faster (or at least better) if each team had different sub-groups within their Team.

Like for example, if there was one or two people inside of the Customization team that had the sole responsibility of maintaining and reporting bugs from the Bug Reports board and being on top of unsolved bugs. (Though it seems to be like it would be more of a developer responsibility since it's directly related to SMF development, but considering that the Devs are busy with actually developing then I think it's good that there is an outside team that can do it for them.) And maybe another one or two people who were assigned to going through the Mod Queue and approving mods and giving feed back.

The only downside to this I can see if that if people don't do their assigned task then that section of the team ends up failing. However considering the alternative that there are jobs that no one wants to do, and they rarely get done (from the sound of it in this thread, I have no idea how it actually is) then the whole team is at fault for something in Psychology called the Bystander Effect (where everybody expects someone else to do it).

In this way tasks can get sand-boxed, so if one task fails to get completed then it's still independent on the other tasks. Also, in this way the different skills of the team could be more appropriately distributed.
[/my two cents]

Though honestly, it's really up to the team leaders how they handle the things their team does. I'm just saying that if things aren't going up to par then it might be time to change the way things are done.

[Massl]

Arantor why not become a developer?
You'd be the perfect person!

[Arantor]

Arantor why not become a developer?
You'd be the perfect person!

Maybe a month ago when I offered, that was the case. Now... no. See, the same mentality pervades through other things. I understand that when I spoke to a member of the dev team a month ago about the possibility of me helping out, a post went onto the dev board.

I have no reason to doubt that's the case, but I heard nothing. Since I'm used to hearing nothing, I assumed that my services weren't required there either because it's equally under control.

Right now I'm basically not here, though I keep up with some of the threads because they make me laugh, and I'm on hiatus from SimpleDesk, sorting a lot of stuff out in RL, and looking into other projects.

Even IF I had the desire now to help, I don't have the time anyway.

[JBlaze]

Actions speak louder than words.

[Deaks]

in response to number 3 and what sd said, I am helping out on themes and the theme list is now uptodate

[MultiformeIngegno]

Arantor why not become a developer?
You'd be the perfect person!

[...]

I have no reason to doubt that's the case, but I heard nothing. Since I'm used to hearing nothing, I assumed that my services weren't required there either because it's equally under control.

WHY?? SMF needs developers!! And I agree that we don't need first-mod-devs, but Arantor is one of the best here!!
He always codes keeping in mind the affect that the edit will have on performances, he always comments his code and he always thinks about his "coding choices"!! Even when beta testers at SD.net found a really annoying bug that needed a complete rewrite of a section, he rewrote it instead of applying a dirty workaround!!
He knows SMF like his pockets!! Look at SimpleDesk (and of course the other 35+ mods he submitted in the cust site), IMO it's the best MOD for the quality of the code!!

Please men reconsider this choise!!

[Arantor]

Thanks for the comments

That said, even if it were to be offered, at this point I'd have to say no anyway, partly because after three weeks of hearing nothing I simply shrugged and walked by, partly because I know it would cause a round of arguments but mostly because these days I don't have to keep my temper in check so much, whereas on the team I found it hard to do so.

[Deaks]

but pete look at the lead dev, he never posts in public and doesnt do any commits, darn when did you ever see karl post in public ... your temper wouldnt have any reason to flare :p

[MultiformeIngegno]

That said, even if it were to be offered, at this point I'd have to say no anyway, partly because after three weeks of hearing nothing I simply shrugged and walked by, partly because I know it would cause a round of arguments but mostly because these days I don't have to keep my temper in check so much, whereas on the team I found it hard to do so.

Never say never (at least I hope so.... )!

Anyway I think that the problem here is that there's no more.. passion! The passion I see on SimpleDesk for example (12500 lines of code - php only - written in only four months!!). And there, passion is not a dev-only thing, I see passion (at least I speak for me!) also in beta testers, and regular users!!

Examples for SMF: the passion in seeing the "product" appreciated and loved!! The passion in competing with other forum softwares!! The passion in seeing the edits you do, and the features you add (ok, I know that it's feature frozen but it's an example!! ), and in seeing the product grow and become more complete!! In mantis I only see sometimes a bug fixed, a ticket commented... I'm not saying that devs aren't doing their job!! Absolutely!! I'm only saying that I don't see the passion.. IMO devs "live" this like a work.. or a task that needs to be done..

[Arantor]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying 'never'. I'm just saying 'no for the time being'.

Over the last few weeks I've had a lot of people say to me that I should rejoin the team, but the more time that goes by the more I think that if I did it would be because of a sense of obligation or 'the right thing to do'. Not necessarily right for me personally, nor because I wanted to, but because of feeling like it's something I should do.

@ Runic: I didn't say where that temper would flare.

[~DS~]

I knew someone will rejoin the Team eventually, not because they support the community but the project in itself. As for you Arantor...I do foresee you rejoining sometime in the future. What this project need is a push especially with Norv here but he cannot act alone and helping him out would have make a significant impact on the project and see SMF walking into the light.