More length options for charter?

[ARG01]

Whether Charter is considered a service or not by SMF, rewording some of the Charter Membership page should be taken into consideration.
From a legal standpoint the following would surly be be considered Charter Membership as being a specific service for payment.

If you don't have the time to install SMF yourself, one of our Support Specialists will be more than happy to do it for you. Just open a helpdesk request, with your hosting information, and your forum should be up and running within twenty-four hours. We only guarantee one installation per year with your membership, though are always happy to answer any questions you have about installing SMF.

With your Charter Membership you are given access to a closed section of our Community forums, as well as a spiffy badge under your name showing that you're a Charter Member.

You also will gain access to our priority support Helpdesk, staffed by our Support Team. This means you will get private, one-on-one help without having to post in the public support forums.

Now, I am not attempting to join the debate here but having a legal background I figured this needed to be pointed out. Simply changing a few words in the above examples would clearly define the difference between a "paid service" and a "possible privilege" for donating.

[All Colours Sam]

And thats pretty much the only thing I was asking back then...  make it clear that this is not a service in any way shape or form...

Doesn't matter if the team sees it as a donation, doesn't matter if our lawyers see it as a donation, doesnt matter if the US law see it as a donation, what it matters is that regular users become charter members with the sole purpose of getting the access to the so called benefits, and this topic, at least the beginning of it, proves it, people don't see it as a donation or a thank you gift, they see it as a service and we aren't doing nothing to prevent that except putting a lot of mumbo jumbo words for the sake of "marketing".

[Kindred]

Actually, Arg...   the only part of those quotes which could be interpreted as a "service promise" is the first one.
The second and third just detail the benefits of the thank you gift.


Suki...  Sorry to say, people will always interpret things the way they want to...
Although we may want to change the wording on the first "promise" bit, the rets of the page just follows the CLEAR statement at the top, that I have already quotes, which says, "for donations of $49.95 USD or more, we give..."


Arantor...
No... people do not have to acknowledge that they understand there is no service promise...   that is something that is required if there IS a service promise. Purchasers would have to acknowledge that there are specific terms to their purchase. Since this is a DONATION (and is clearly stated that it is a donation) there are no implied terms. We can give whatever we want in return for a donation.

Motoko...
We are not in breach of any laws.

[All Colours Sam]

Sure they will, it is our duty to tell then what exactly the charter membership is, something as simple as "This is not a service", "There are no implied terms"  can help people to realize this is not a service.  As always, be specific, not vague, no vague wording, no marketing strategies, simply be clear and consistent on what this charter membership is, the current page fails to accomplish that at least on a "masses" level.

If I were to chose I just remove the whole benefits text of that page (while keep providing the benefits of course), after all, like you say, its a donation, people can't expect anything in return for a donation.

[Kindred]

and as I said... except for the one bit on installation, there is no vague wording....

[青山 素子]

Motoko...
We are not in breach of any laws.

Never said you were, just tried to clarify that one statement.

[ARG01]

Actually, Arg...   the only part of those quotes which could be interpreted as a "service promise" is the first one.
The second and third just detail the benefits of the thank you gift.

Actually all three could be interpreted as a "service promise"

If you don't have the time to install SMF yourself, one of our Support Specialists will be more than happy to do it for you. Just open a helpdesk request, with your hosting information, and your forum should be up and running within twenty-four hours. We only guarantee one installation per year with your membership, though are always happy to answer any questions you have about installing SMF.

With your Charter Membership you are given access to a closed section of our Community forums, as well as a spiffy badge under your name showing that you're a Charter Member.

You also will gain access to our priority support Helpdesk, staffed by our Support Team. This means you will get private, one-on-one help without having to post in the public support forums.

"will", "are" and "guarantee" are the key words here that suggests "specific services for payment" that may not be available unless payment is made. Like I said, it all depends on how it is worded. A few minor changes in the wording may help clear things up.

[Kindred]

I think that you are reading too much into it and trying to spin those specific words.

I've already conceded that the first one should be reworded. "guarantee" is incorrectly included, indeed.

the second and third do not imply a service as you are suggesting.  They indicate the things that are GIVEN to someone who has donated enough to receive a charter membership.

your attempt to "spin" the words "will" and "are" reminds me of Clinton....
"It depends on what the meaning of the words 'is' is." –Bill Clinton

[ARG01]

I think that you are reading too much into it and trying to spin those specific words.

I've already conceded that the first one should be reworded. "guarantee" is incorrectly included, indeed.

the second and third do not imply a service as you are suggesting.  They indicate the things that are GIVEN to someone who has donated enough to receive a charter membership.

Okay, I am not spinning anything. If I am reading too much into it then don't you think that others are doing so as well? Misinterpretation of something that is not clearly defined is what leads to lawsuits. My point is that the way it is currently worded could become the basis of a lawsuit simply because some WILL not interpret the statements as SMF intends them to be.
I am not here to argue with anyone. I am simply stating that from experience, I define the current statements not as a possible privilege but as specific services available only to those that pay for them. In legal terms, "services for payment".

[Kindred]

Honestly, apart form the first bit, I can't see how anyone would interpret the second and third bits as you have unless they were trying to force the "service" interpretation...  and if they are doing that, then they will assume that ANYTHING we say would be interpreted that way. You can not asusme that the words WILL and ARE have any specific connotation.

remember, the whole page is PREFACED with a statement indicating that charter membership is given in thanks for a DONATION. Everything after that needs to be interpreted using that preface if it is to make any logical sense at all.

[ARG01]

Well I am almost positive that I am not the only one here misinterpreting the statements. I mean, isn't that what this topic turned out as? I surly did not initiate that the statement may not be accurate.
Do what you feel is right but would it be that big of chore to make a few very minor adjustment to avoid discussions such as this, and possible legal issues as well? I mean, how tough can it be?

[All Colours Sam]

Which again is what I was pursuing, make it clear, (newbie clear, noob clear).  If you have to say this is not a service, then put it, in big red bold letters.

You might see it as clear as water, but most people don't/won't, this is a recurrent issue while writing code, you need to write code thinking on the most stupid possible scenario, simply because you don't know who will be using your software, even if I think it is stupid to put some checks I will still do it because not everyone has the same level of understanding as me. The same principle applies here, even if you think that page is as clear as water, you still need to be sure its as clear as water for the commoners out there. After all, that page is intended for them, not for you.

And yes, 99% of people here see charter membership as a service.

[emanuele]

Just curios Kindred, may I ask you why you don't want this page to be changed?

[Kindred]

it's not that I don't want the page to be changed... it is that, with the exception of the "guarantee" bit, I don't see why people insist that it needs to be changed...

[All Colours Sam]

So, the fact that several people had expressed that it will be good to change that page or at least reword some of the parts on it isn't enough?

The fact that this topic started because the OP was viewing the charter as a service isn't enough?

Again, just because its clear for you or you don't see anything wrong on it doesn't make it clear for everyone else. And that page is intended for the masses, the least we can do is make it clear for them nor for us.

[KensonPlays]

So, the fact that several people had expressed that it will be good to change that page or at least reword some of the parts on it isn't enough?

The fact that this topic started because the OP was viewing the charter as a service isn't enough?

Again, just because its clear for you or you don't see anything wrong on it doesn't make it clear for everyone else. And that page is intended for the masses, the least we can do is make it clear for them nor for us.

I've been viewing this in the background and I am both viewing it as a service, AND a donation.

[Kindred]

Suki,

When people start claiming that the words "will" and "are" define a service, then they are being willfully dense.

I never said that the page should not be changed. I merely have been pointing out that just because some people don't read does not make the existing page "wrong"... and it was pointed out (and agreed) that at leats one part of the page actually is wrong and needs to be revised. I fail to see how much clearer the rest of the page can be though...

KCmartz...  With the exception of the one section, there is no terms of service defined either outright or implied, merely some benefits (you can't... either you donate and get whatever the recipient is willing to give in return (may be nothing) or you purchase a service. It can not be both.)

[LiroyvH]

I never said that the page should not be changed. I merely have been pointing out that just because some people don't read does not make the existing page "wrong"... and it was pointed out (and agreed) that at leats one part of the page actually is wrong and needs to be revised. I fail to see how much clearer the rest of the page can be though...

This.
It sounds odd that because of refusal to read it has to be changed.
Next thing that happens is that the modifications are not noticed or not read either and we get the same discussion over and over o0

[ARG01]

When people start claiming that the words "will" and "are" define a service, then they are being willfully dense.

The words "are" and "will" in their current context in my opinion assist in suggesting  a service for payment. I began my first post here simply stating my opinion from experience, hoping it may help.
Regardless of what you may think of my intelligence Kindred, I was not being "willfully dense" and the insult was not called for nor appreciated. It's your exact attitude with insults that keep people away from this website.

Have a pleasant evening. Jerk!

[emanuele]

1) Here we have evidences that the page is misunderstood (at least is not understood the way SMF ^[1] intends it).
2) We have discussions and fights every now and then to have some changes to this page.
3) The page is not about something futile like a modification, but is related to something rather important like money (that usually could makes people rather sad/upset) that can have legal consequences.

INAL:
http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Substantiating-Charitable-Contributions
and in particular:
http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organizations/Charitable-Contributions---Quid-Pro-Quo-Contributions
of course the CM is less than 75$, so it shouldn't be an issue at all, though if the IRS would interpret the page the way many members are interpreting it it could be a problem for members donating more than 75$.
But of course INAL and I don't even understand very well English (let alone legal English).


[1] With the F, yes, because the "charter membership" is something created by SMF and is not currently adopted by any other project of the SM organization.