More length options for charter?

mashby · October 31, 2012, 10:08:06 PM

Did your legal dude do anything about it? I think Kindred's interpretation is rather valid and he plays an attorney on TV, or maybe it's radio. If it's not a donation, what is it? Do charter members get extra stuff? I think they do. I'd get a new lawyer.

Arantor · October 31, 2012, 10:15:42 PM

Nope. I consulted about the legal implications of setting it up for Wedge, and his opinion was that it's not a donation, it's a service, and when I explained how SMF approaches it, he said that as far as he was concerned, it was tantamount to fraud calling it a donation when it isn't especially for a non-profit org. But he hasn't - and won't - do anything about it, he was just telling me what my options were.

LiroyvH · October 31, 2012, 10:17:39 PM

You consulted a crap lawyer then I guess, lol.
For example, if you donate to a charity and you get a present in return as a thank you; that doesn't make it a purchase either. Total nonsense.

You donate to the project; you get something nice in return as a thank you.
That's not the same thing as purchasing a service.

Not sure how the person giving you legal advice figured it is, but he/she is obviously very much mistaken.

Arantor · October 31, 2012, 10:20:57 PM

How is it not the same thing? You're paying some money, you're getting something in return. However you dress it up, however you call it a donation, it IS NOT A DONATION. It is giving money and getting something in return. In any other country this is called buying something and thus a *transaction*, not a donation.

LiroyvH · October 31, 2012, 10:22:29 PM

Guess you should sue the WWF as an example for fraude then.
Good luck!

Arantor · October 31, 2012, 10:24:55 PM

Read their small print. They don't call it a donation as such. They actually acknowledge the legal consequences - and strictly speaking you're not purchasing a service out of it, are you?

* Arantor does sponsor animals via WWF.

mashby · October 31, 2012, 10:28:44 PM

And again, don't Charter Members see Helpdesk? It that a guarantee of service? No, but is an extra benefit? I think it just might be. Wow, how this topic has gone astray. I need a lawyer.

Arantor · October 31, 2012, 10:30:13 PM

And that's my point which everyone is trying so hard to avoid.

Does it say anywhere, that the CM has to agree to, that there *isn't* a guarantee of service? It's legally dubious to offer something - even when you don't 'guarantee' service - in exchange for cash.

LiroyvH · October 31, 2012, 10:35:18 PM

Quote from: Arantor on October 31, 2012, 10:30:13 PM
And that's my point which everyone is trying so hard to avoid.

Does it say anywhere, that the CM has to agree to, that there *isn't* a guarantee of service? It's legally dubious to offer something - even when you don't 'guarantee' service - in exchange for cash.

You don't offer anything in exchange for cash. You get a donation and as a thank you present (so to speak to make it more clear) you get a shiny badge and access to a exclusive board. If you donate $50 or $5000 is irrelevant, you get the same thing as a thank you gift.

I'm not sure about WWF's wording as of late, but i'm quite sure they simply use the word donation.
But, to satisfy you, let me give you another example, also local to you:
https://www.ifaw.org/united-kingdom/secure/donate/uk-support-ifaws-work-snowy-keep

See the promo at the end for the plush seal.
You're saying that if you donate and you get that toy in return (and they do use the word DONATE), it's no longer a donation but a purchase for the toy. It's not...
You donate, and as a thank you for your generosity; the organization kindly sends you a plush toy. Same applies here; just we don't send a toy but give other goodies.

Arantor · October 31, 2012, 10:43:33 PM

QuoteYou're saying that if you donate and you get that toy in return (and they do use the word DONATE), it's no longer a donation but a purchase for the toy. It's not...

Legally speaking, which as we should all know has nothing to do with how life actually works, yes it is still a purchase. Note that you can actually opt to *not* have the plush toy.

Also, local to me, except for the part where their international headquarters and website operations are based in a corporation in Massachusetts. Though even the local part is actually a registered *company* as well as a charity. Funny that they're not solely a charity. It's almost like they actually realise that under the law it's not just a simple donation to charity.

Whatever. You've all decided that you're right, I'm hopeful that I'm wrong. Let's just hope that we never find out.

mashby · October 31, 2012, 10:49:31 PM

I am hopeful as you are as well. And if you're dedicated to it as you seem to be, you can pursue legal action against SMF.

Arantor · October 31, 2012, 10:55:04 PM

Great. Here I am outlining a legitimate concern I have, one that I see as non trivial, and you think I'm out to sue you. Thanks for nothing.

mashby · October 31, 2012, 11:03:16 PM

Thank you for seeing something as non-trivial. We are on the same page. What I am suggesting by asking you to take legal action is non-trivial as well. It's rather black and white to me. If you think we are defrauding our Charter Members, then, please take non-trivial actions against us on the words of your legal adviser. To me, you are blowing smoke. Considering you aren't a Charter Member, your legal recourse is slim to none. And yes, I don't think you are out to sue us. I think you might be libeling us though.

Arantor · October 31, 2012, 11:17:13 PM

No, we're not on the same page, not by a long chalk. Reading what I actually wrote would be a great start.

You're suggesting to me I take legal action. I have no intention of doing such. I spoke to a legal counsel about a similar but not entirely the same legal situation and he was concerned that if I carried out the same actions as SMF that I would potentially be causing fraud. I note that he is almost certainly referring to the laws in this country, not the US tax laws.

I don't think you're defrauding your Charter Members. I just think you're being disingenuous about what you're offering.

Are we in agreement that this is the nearest thing to a contract about what is being offered for Charter members?

There are items in there that are stated as *guaranteed* to be offered. To me, this suggests like it is not a donation gift, but a service that is being bought and paid for.

Also, the comments made that 'it doesn't matter whether you donate $50 or $x' are also incorrect, see for example http://nonprofit.about.com/od/fundraising/a/donordisclose.htm (not exactly authoritative, but should suffice as a jumping off point - and this is all going on the end of year report anyway, right?)

Maybe I am blowing smoke. It's not intentional. But for the trouble I have of trying to raise what I see as a legitimate concern - and for my trouble I get accused of being libellous because I think you're being disingenuous and that one person I have spoken to is concerned there might be a possible fraud issue, certainly if this were to occur in the UK. He's not sure enough to prognosticate about the US tax laws. But he was surprised at the manner in which this is being carried out given that the goods are not necessary of 'insubstantial benefit' from the IRS terms.

Nice to know how highly you think of me, though.

LiroyvH · October 31, 2012, 11:22:01 PM

Quote
Are we in agreement that this is the nearest thing to a contract about what is being offered for Charter members?

No

mashby · October 31, 2012, 11:22:16 PM

Funny that. Not by a long chalk? Hmm. Your lawyer says that we are committing fraud. Yet you say "I don't think you're defrauding your Charter Members" Which is it?

Kindred · November 01, 2012, 12:09:32 AM

Once again... we are not offering this as a service. We make no promised as to terms of service or anything else. We offer the BENEFIT to folks who DONATE.

And yes, this has legal standing in the US. I don't know about the UK or EU... but we're a US company and, according to US law we count it as a donation not as a service. (and BTW, we ARE a legally registered non-profit organization, we are just not a tax-exempt organization)

Colin · November 01, 2012, 12:10:42 AM

Quote from: Kindred on November 01, 2012, 12:09:32 AM
but we're a US company

US organization

Kindred · November 01, 2012, 12:12:52 AM

actually, I believe, per the state filing we are technically, a non-profit organization as a corporation.

青山素子 · November 01, 2012, 12:34:52 AM

Quote from: monster mashby on October 31, 2012, 11:22:16 PM
Your lawyer says that we are committing fraud. Yet you say "I don't think you're defrauding your Charter Members" Which is it?

You can be in breach of certain laws and therefore technically committing a crime while not intending to be. I think that is what he is saying.

That said, it might be worthwhile to review the Charter Membership page and see if it can be better worded to indicate that it is a gift given as a thank you for donating above a certain level, not a service.

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More length options for charter?