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Author Topic: Unclear description for "Maximum emails to send per minute"  (Read 4420 times)

Offline m4z

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Unclear description for "Maximum emails to send per minute"
« on: September 06, 2019, 12:50:20 PM »
Admin → Maintenance → Mail → Settings → "Maximum emails to send per minute (Set to 0 to disable.)"

It's unclear whether "disabling" means:
  • disabling mail sending altogether, by allowing a maximum of 0 mails per minute (which is what I understood it to mean)
  • disabling the limit, allowing any number of mails (which, based on a quick test, seems to be what is actually meant)
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 12:07:46 AM by Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen »
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Offline Kindred

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Re: Unclear description for "Maximum emails to send per minute"
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2019, 01:04:30 PM »
disable the maximum -- so, do not throttle.
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Offline m4z

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Re: Unclear description for "Maximum emails to send per minute"
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2019, 04:58:11 AM »
Thanks for confirming, I'll try to prepare a PR for "(Set to 0 for no limit)".
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Offline Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen

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Re: Unclear description for "Maximum emails to send per minute"
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2019, 05:08:42 AM »
I don't really it see it as unclear, the setting is "maximum emails", so a limit,  and disabling a limit means no limits. But I guess, if you misunderstood then it is possible others can as well. So a small clarification may be good.
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Offline m4z

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Re: Unclear description for "Maximum emails to send per minute"
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2019, 05:30:16 AM »
Yeah I was probably a bit biased because I was looking for an option to disable all or all non-essential mail, but apparently there is none. Still, I think it's better to be precise, that also makes the job easier for the translators. :-*
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Offline Arantor

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Re: Unclear description for "Maximum emails to send per minute"
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2019, 06:48:20 AM »
It also means more work I suspect as that string is reused in lots of contexts.
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Offline m4z

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Re: Unclear description for "Maximum emails to send per minute"
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2019, 06:57:49 AM »
Yeah, but not every string it is (redundantly, not code-included-ly) used in is as unclear as this one. ;) O:)
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Offline Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen

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Re: Unclear description for "Maximum emails to send per minute"
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2019, 07:10:29 AM »
It also means more work I suspect as that string is reused in lots of contexts.
if it indeed is, I don't see a reason for it. The actual setting is unique, so the parenthesis can be included in it's string.
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Offline m4z

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Re: Unclear description for "Maximum emails to send per minute"
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2019, 07:23:37 AM »
Oh I see, in this case there are two strings, $txt['mail_limit'] and $txt['zero_to_disable']... :-[
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Offline Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen

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Re: Unclear description for "Maximum emails to send per minute"
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2019, 10:00:04 AM »
Oh, combinations like that make translating more difficult than having it all in one. No space for confusion. So, I wonder why it is like that.
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Offline Arantor

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Re: Unclear description for "Maximum emails to send per minute"
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2019, 10:13:56 AM »
Oh, combinations like that make translating more difficult than having it all in one. No space for confusion. So, I wonder why it is like that.

Because in English the second half is used everywhere, and thus the string gets reused.
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Offline Kindred

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Re: Unclear description for "Maximum emails to send per minute"
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2019, 11:24:36 AM »
the PR is unneeded...

The phrase "0 to disable" (meaning "setting 0 means max out, no limit" is standard across pretty much every peice of software I have ever worked on or used....

Your belief that it should mean "disable the feature" is not standard usage or belief.....
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Offline m4z

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Re: Unclear description for "Maximum emails to send per minute"
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2019, 03:42:28 PM »
Since this seems to be controversial, I won't write a PR. (Marking the topic as fixed.)

If anybody wants this changed similarly to how I suggested, please comment.
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Offline Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen

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Re: Unclear description for "Maximum emails to send per minute"
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2019, 11:47:02 PM »
I do think, purely from an i18n point of view that with settings like this it would make more sense to have this

$txt['mail_limit'] = "Maximum emails to send per minute (0 for no limit)"

Than combine two like this
$txt['mail_limit'] = "Maximum emails to send per minute"
$txt['zero_to_disable'] = "(Set to 0 to disable.)"

Especially, since the translators often do not see these two at the same time ... also, because the actual structure of the sentence may vary according to language, so we shouldn't force structure.

EDIT:
I understand, this is actually not exactly the same issue as posted in the op, but very much related, as this allows for more specific descriptions per use case as well.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 12:02:28 AM by Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen »
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Offline Antechinus

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Re: Unclear description for "Maximum emails to send per minute"
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2019, 01:08:55 AM »
Hang on, are you suggesting that not every language follows the same case, gender, tense and other formats as English?

Be quiet! You'll confuse the Americans. :P

Offline Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen

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Re: Unclear description for "Maximum emails to send per minute"
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2019, 01:39:49 AM »
Confucious say, America not the center of universe.
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Offline Arantor

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Re: Unclear description for "Maximum emails to send per minute"
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2019, 01:56:38 AM »
Yup, though this does create more work for translators. It’s also separated so that the super generic “0 to disable” string can be shown in smaller text underneath the main string, something that I personally would prefer didn’t go into the language strings, they have enough HTML in them already.
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Offline m4z

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Re: Unclear description for "Maximum emails to send per minute"
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2019, 03:12:14 PM »
I do think, purely from an i18n point of view that with settings like this it would make more sense to have this

$txt['mail_limit'] = "Maximum emails to send per minute (0 for no limit)"

Than combine two [...]

When translating such string, I tend to "improve" the strings in my language independently of whether the english string is changed according to my suggestions, to (attempt to) remove the problem (in this case, I'd maybe go with something like "Limit maximum number of emails to send per minute (Set to 0 to disable.)").


Especially, since the translators often do not see these two at the same time ...

In the case of two strings you at least know which string is included, I find string duplication to be a much bigger problem, because you have to keep the redundant copies synchronized (also as a translator, which means you need to keep a glossary), and sometimes don't even know which obscure other variable might be referenced or verbatim-quoted (and the original might have changed in the meantime). But yeah, variables are a problem, especially for non-technical translators (also discussed here, more recently.

And yeah, every lookup of another variable (or search for a variable which name you don't know) takes additional time off of translation. :-\
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Offline m4z

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Re: Unclear description for "Maximum emails to send per minute"
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2019, 03:15:38 PM »
Hang on, are you suggesting that not every language follows the same case, gender, tense and other formats as English?

Be quiet! You'll confuse the Americans. :P

I only have a very basic knowledge of this, but I guess in such languages you'd be forced to re-write/re-translate the variable content into the first string anyway, no? (But it would probably not mean as much duplication of strings, only multiple "similar" strings adjusted to the context they're used in?)
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Offline Antechinus

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Re: Unclear description for "Maximum emails to send per minute"
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2019, 05:50:08 PM »
I only have limited knowledge of it myself, but I do know that Finnish has vastly more complex use of such things than English. Same applies to the closely-related Estonian, and no doubt to a range of other languages. Beats me why. They must have got bored sitting around in the Arctic winter and decided to have some fun. :D

I also remember Emanuele, who is Italian, grumbling about the English-centric formatting of text strings in 2.0.x and how it borked things in other languages. He pushed some changes in 2.1 alpha because of this.

Quote
(But it would probably not mean as much duplication of strings, only multiple "similar" strings adjusted to the context they're used in?)

That's my understanding of it (not being able to read any of the relevant languages in any depth).