Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends

[Cassiel]

Honestly, this is turning into silly amounts of silly right now. So far i've just been hearing the same arguments from the same sides, the same sniping, and pretty much the same of everything. This is absolutely stagnant right now and it is going nowhere.

And this is what happens in a lot of two-sides arguments (or debates or whatever you want to call it). Both sides are at fault in their own ways, but neither one will admit fault because they think their side is the right one. I mean, not to attack either side here but this is just what i'm seeing. I'm also not trying to say that one side is more correct than the other, but i'm just saying that the way things could've played out was wrong on both sides which is why we are in this mess.

The way it seems to me is that since the entire Team is being pulled in all sorts of different directions and having to juggle way more responsibilities than ever previously thought of nothing is being done, or if it is it's just being done at a snail's pace. Honestly, the main focus of this should be getting this whole thing settled and done with so that everyone can get back to focusing on the software and the wonderful community support here. If you have a weight on you you don't keep walking with the weight on trying to make it to the finish lie, you take the weight off and run like hell.

And just another thing I wanted to point out: We need more smilies! A lot of the threads I use to read were filled with such happy conversations going on, and everything is light hearted. But now everything is with a much more serious tone, and smilies have been turned into "I mean my statement light-heartidly" instead of "I'm actually genuinely happy". It really makes me sad that such once happy people have gone all serious (and don't worry, I will refrain from making the "Why so serious" joke ).

All of this squabbling is like a nasty parasite on SMF, and it needs to be dealt with ASAP. For the good of SMF and it's future. It's kind of hard to believe that everyone is on the same common ground for the support of the software here, yet we all can't band together and see it through like the days of old.

It's all been said before. People saying that this is too heated, we need to calm down and take a look at this, and offering their own input as to how it should go about being solved. But from the looks of things the voices of the basic community users are not being held. There has been no update on the peace talks, a lot of the users posting in this thread are afraid, and even though there has been an attempt on getting the community informed there hasn't really been much done besides an un-updated peace talk thread with a post from Amy after the week this has been up, and a announcement thread that some users have found vague.

It just seems that the users are being ignored while nothing is done.

And I know you guys care for this software. I care for it, and the Team Members both new and old probably care for it about 1000 times more than any user every could. I'm not trying to call anybody or any side out here. I am simply trying to call to light what I feel the situation is like right now to the basic users....or at least to me.

I am glad that Amy finally posted, it shows that at least something is done. But I for one would just want more advancement on trying to get everything settled. At least until this unfitting weight is freed from the shoulders of SMF, and it's community and staff and once again provide a wonderful and incredible experience that has members standing by it through the next thousand years....at the least. (Well, thats just a personal starting goal anyways. If the weather permits then i'm hoping to go for a least another three maybe even four thousand years.)

Best of luck to all endeavors, both big and small, to all sides of the issue,
-Cassiel

[b4pjoe]

WOW....as a complete outsider I guess it's safe to say the gloves have come off now. Sheesh, I had just made up my mind to stick with SMF for my site. I think I will start looking for other options again. It's hard to imagine these two sides ever coming to any type of agreement.

Cheers to all...

[TurtleKicker]

Just one question: Why aren't you leaving the team? Do you think you are worth as much as all the people who would rejoin in the event you left?

This is a significant point. Regardless of what side someone is on in this, or personal feelings about a person's character, it's an indisputable fact that if Amy were to step down, the floodgates of healing would open and a massive majority of people who left would return. The process could begin, while at the moment there is a sense that we're at a statemate.

A community project such as SMF is more than one person, or a few. It is what the community makes it. And if 80-90% of that community wants a certain change, and the community is at risk of failing unless it happens, one might think that things should be done for the sake of the greater good and best-interests of the project.

I confess to not being on the "inside" of this and so not being privy to the inner discussions or the intimate goings-on that lead to all this. But what I do know is that on one side of this, you have an overwhelming number of highly-respected community members (including former founders, one leg of the LLC triad, tons of developers, mod writers, theme designers, past and present, on and on and on) who say one thing. And then you have the opposing stance, with an alternate version of the story, which has been notably silent until recently... with a post that raises many new questions. And I think I can count the number of people on this side on one hand. At least that I've noticed saying anything.

If this were an evenly-divided debate, an outsider would be wise to be careful what side he chose to believe. However, there is a peculiar and notable inbalance in the sheer number, and who, are on which side.

If you have a weight on you you don't keep walking with the weight on trying to make it to the finish lie, you take the weight off and run like hell.

My perception is that people agree with you, the problem is that the "weight" you describe is perceived as a specific person.

[Fustrate]

I left the Simple Machines team for three reasons:

1. They were talking in Leadership (where I, a "leader", could see it!) about banning me along with the others who were banned. Instead of letting them force me out, I decided to leave on my own terms.

2. I didn't like the way the remaining team members were treating my friends, those who left and still cared enough to try to help SMF, and those who did not agree with the new team agreement and were effectively forced out.

3. I couldn't trust those who were left on the team to respect the rights of each other, former team members, and the community.

[metallica48423]

Well.

Considering that I can count no less than a dozen team members that left either because of Amacythe specifically or because of her influence on the management of the project...

Singlehandedly burning bridges while a diplomatic effort is underway?  Not exactly awe-inspiring management.

Lest we forget, it was not us that invited several people in to help restructure things and solve these exact problems only to be told that our opinions were no longer welcome.  I'm sorry, but that's exactly what was said -- with the sprinkles and candy removed.

If the team expected productive discussion, there should have been leadership and guidance of the issues from the team leadership to help form cohesive discussions.  There was none.  There was no complaints about the state of the discussions.  There was nobody saying "hey, we need to get our stuff together."

When someone puts a hand out and offers a helping hand after already being punched in the face, is accepted to help, and gets punched in the face again... well, what do you expect?  Do you expect people to just tuck their tails and run?

But I'm personally going to take the high road and not drag the community further into this mess.  At the end of the day, it is the community that suffers from poor management decisions.   Since the management no longer seems to desire an open dialogue and mature discussion, decided to openly mock a respectful and sincere letter addressed from NEARLY THIRTY former team members, the greatest majority whom had been involved actively or as a friend in the last year, have been going on every possible tangent to prevent people from presenting their opinions, banning longstanding former team members and charter members for placing a link in their signatures, and continue to allow the situation to continue, I fear for the future of the project.

I'm sorry to the community that has to endure this.  I honestly am. 

[Nightwish]

Having said that, I use to be a miserable failure settling disputes on my forum. The online world seems to push even decent folks into becoming very discourteous in a matter of seconds. We hide behind our key boards and feel a certain disconnect when it comes to others. I don't think it is intentional, but just the nature of online communications. At least that is what I experienced with my community forum.

You are spot on with your observations and there is a plain and simple theory supporting them. It is called GIFT.

To sum it up - people are behaving differently in online communities and the 2 basic reasons are:

1) There is anonymity.
2) There is a (probably huge) audience

The combination of those 2 can lead even smart and usually calm people into behaving like totally careless idiots, an interesting and most likely psychological phenomenon.

[Filipina]

I know this seems to be getting worse by the minute and it kind of makes me sad. How can you negotiate better way forward with all this background noise?

[Lugial]

fight, fight, fight!

[Kindred]

Please let it be noted that I *AM* working toward resolution of this and a number of other issues. I have a voice with both the team and the friends groups and I am working with both to sort things out.

In addition, our representatives ARE talking.... i's just taking a little while since many of us actually have a life outside of the internet

[NoobDeveloper]

Just one question: Why aren't you leaving the team? Do you think you are worth as much as all the people who would rejoin in the event you left?



Amacythe, you QUIT from here and problem will be solved

[Eliana Tamerin]

I know this seems to be getting worse by the minute and it kind of makes me sad. How can you negotiate better way forward with all this background noise?

That's just it. Amacythe posted that in the middle of the dialogue talks, which has several notable people enraged to the point of closing them. That's exactly what her post was designed to do. The very tactics displayed here by Amacythe are the exact reasons why SMF has come to this point, and why the SMF Friends feel this project is being handled improperly. The SMF Community would be wise to keep this in mind.

[Fustrate]

talktoanil, around thirty former team members (and a few current team members who have now been shunned) already requested that in a letter that I wrote before I resigned. I won't start talking about the reaction we received, but it wasn't positive, or even neutral.

[NoobDeveloper]

talktoanil, around thirty former team members (and a few current team members who have now been shunned) already requested that in a letter that I wrote before I resigned. I won't start talking about the reaction we received, but it wasn't positive, or even neutral.

I don't know if its possible or legal.

SMF is open-source. Modify the code a little , Give it a new name and new theme. and then let this Amacythe do whatever she wants with this forum and software.

Note : This should be the last step if all talks with her fails.

[Fustrate]

Ain't gonna work, the license forbids that.

We're actually exploring making our own software without all of SMF's baggage, you might see an image linking to it in quite a few of the former team members' signatures.

[Dannii]

The SMF Licence doesn't allow that unfortunately. But then the SMF Licence is of questionable legality...

[codenaught]

As one of the actual owners of Simple Machines (legally), I feel that I owe the community my opinion. I have kept quiet publicly during this whole crisis, although I was fairly vocal internally. I made the conscience decision for myself that I did not want to be involved in the public "war" over this matter. I knew emotions were high on both sides, and knew both sides would react in ways that they would later regret.

I do not want to stir SMF into the ground. Amy's post to me doesn't to me seem very honest, and I am disappointed that she came out so strong and hostile to the SMF Friends side of this debate in public. I question her intentions here, I really do. I thought this topic was started to tell the community that the ongoing issues between Leadership and Former Team Members were being addressed diplomatically via a form of dialogue. Then I see her post making some very harsh accusations about a rather generic group of individuals who have dedicated really countless hours into this project.

I just want to say, despite what Amy has accused me and so many others of doing, I am not out to "get" her. I really am not. If anyone thinks we are out to get her or wish to kill this project, can you ask yourself, why would we have such intentions?

SMF to many of us, is part of our own child. We all crafted bits and pieces of SMF and its community to allow it to flourish into something amazing. When I signed on to the team, I was just about 17 and a high school student. I sought to find an open project that I could help out with, with the side benefit of enjoying the work I put into it.

For anyone to doubt any of our intentions, I really ask you to think practically about that.

Yes my name is on "that" document some of you may have seen which had 30 names of former team members asking for her and 2 other individuals to resign. Do people really think I feel good about putting my name on such a request? Maybe there are people that take joy out of publicly pronouncing their objection to an individual they at one time knew closely, but I assure you I am not one of those people. I prefer to try to see the story from all perspectives and realize that no Amy is not some evil person. Therefore I stand no personal satisfaction to seeing her character put up to question like it was. I was aware that she probably was going to decline the call for resignation and later I heard that it was going to be posted publicly.

Why did I sign it? Because it is no secret that I thought it was best for the project for her to step down. I have been one of the people who had asked her to step down internally before this whole mess even went down.

Why did I want her to step down? There were quite a lot of reasons, but it really came down to the fact that really quite a substantial amount of people have come out and stated she was a major reason why they left the team. Amy could be a Goddess for all I care, but is anyone worth that much cost? Of course it wasn't just about the fact that they left because of her, but the reasons why they left because of her, but I won't get into them here.

There are so many accounts of why Amy is wrong for this project. But I won't go down there. I will point out that many people actually have different reasons for not trusting her. Something that I think actually says something to those who think we are all just brainwashed into believing stuff. If we were brainwashed, all the dislike for her management would probably hold some level of uniformity.

I will not say why I personally dislike her management of this project, as I wish to take the higher ground here. If others wish to, that is up to them. But I do know that this is a lot of "your word against mine" kind of debate. And when it becomes like that, usually it is the side that is the most courteous that tends to prevail and make people believe in them in the long run. This is just my belief however.

At the end of the day, we all hold opinions of what we think is best for SMF. It is a blurry line from there where it becomes fair to accuse anyone of trying to "hurt" the project or accuse them of just wanting "personal gain."

I resigned from my position on the SMF team because I no longer believed in what the team stood for. That's just my opinion however, and I still have respect for many of the team members who decided to stay on. If I personally was after power, why would I resign from the team in the first place? I already had a leadership position and I was one of the legal owners to this whole company, I think you can argue I didn't have much to gain. I wanted to see us transition to an NPO with more board members and in fact this is what virtually all the Friends that you hear being attacked over here wanted. A more open license. A lot of really awesome stuff in my opinion. To me, we (as in the Friends) wanted stuff that was all about giving SMF to the community. I see the management/leadership closing off politics (mind, "politics" is a very vague term) from the team and clinging on to their control very much against the open spirit that themselves claim to want.

I wish SMF the best of luck for the future. I for one am not out to destroy SMF, and despite the claims, I see no reason to believe so many former team members wish to destroy something they put so many hours into making even possible. It is such a desperate notion to even bring up in my mind. I feel sorry for anyone who really has this belief wired into their brain.

It has been a good up and down road through my experience on the team. SMF has been an incredible learning experience and I have met many friends from it. I will always hold memories of SMF warm to my heart. Even if I am labeled as one of those who doesn't care about SMF or the community. I care, I really do. So many emotions are going through me as I write this post. I will always appreciate my experience with SMF, even if it ended on a bad note.

[Antechinus]

Well congratulations, Amy. I admit I owe you a retraction since I didn't think you had it in you to post in this thread. Now, about the content of your post.........

For the past few months, many past team members (SMF Friends) have been returning to offer advice regarding our project.  There had been ongoing discussions about our business structure as well as our team structure.  These discussions were very informative and helpful; however, some of those past team members who returned have expectations of making the decisions regarding the future of a project they left behind.  (Some of them left recently but others left over three years ago.) ... and while their advice was (and still is being) considered their demands were not met and many became disgruntled.

That disgruntlement became openly abusive aggression and the aggression then turned into childish attacks.

The Staff of SMF chose to ignore the immature actions until such time as it was no longer wise to allow these actions to continue.  The negative comments and childish attacks started to hinder the forward motion of the project.  The morale of our active team members was slowly being stripped away one post at a time.  Some team members left over the hostility and a great many others, including all of our developers, were about to leave if something drastic hadn't been done.

This is an interesting way of putting things. My recollection is somewhat different. 

Your first paragraph is partially true, in that the Friends were offering advice about what they thought was best for the project. It is also true that there was some disgruntlement and some childish attacks, but they were not just coming from The Friends. You were responsible for some of them yourself, as were other team members (and at the time I was one of them).

Your next paragraph is, in my considered opinion, a blatant distortion of the facts. You see folks, at the time that this latest and greatest management action was planned and executed the attacks and disgruntlement had ceased on both sides and were replaced with generally productive and amicable discussions. In other words, the assertion that the management actions of a week and a half ago had to be taken to stop unbridled aggression directed at team members is quite simply false. That aggression, from both sides I might add, was long gone. It was no longer an issue. It did not require any action at all to deal with it.

Without developers, we would have no future, so the majority of the Developers and Management discussed what drastic action should be taken.  A few of the team members had made the suggestion that we should fire and ban the entire team.  The decision made by the majority of Devs and Management was that the best course of action would be to force all Team Members to sign an agreement stating that they would not be party to the ongoing hostilities and would respect the project's Core Values rather than ban them.  This left the decision up to the members to sign and continue.  Sadly, some of our Team Members refused to sign the agreement and we were forced to remove them from the team.  Some went gracefully, but the majority chose to become aggressively vengeful.  Regretfully, as a result, some of them along with some of members of the community were banned for posting negative propaganda.

I convinced the admin responsible for those bans to lift them, but not until a considerable amount of damage was done to both SMF and to my own reputation.

Ok, this is great. So let's be clear that any member of the team leadership who was thought likely to not agree to the action was not consulted. You didn't mention that. In other words, there was a deliberate policy of not seeking opinions that might have shed a different perspective on the situation. There was no open vote of the leadership that decided on this action after free discussion. This is hardly the way to have an honest approach to dealing with other team leaders.

Now as for the new team agreement, I was one of those who refused to sign. The reason I refused to sign is because I thought the management actions to be so stunningly inept and so guaranteed to provoke massive disruption (and events have certainly proved me right there) at a time when there was no disruption to speak of, that there was no possible way I could bring myself to support such actions. It seemed to me the very epitome of bad management to do something like that. As I have said before, it was as if the action was planned and executed in a vacuum that had no relation to the actual state of the team and friends at the time.

This was my reason for not signing. It had and has nothing to do with revenge. I would note that since that action most of the management involved in it have admitted it was very badly handled and apologised for this. One manager has not. I doubt she ever will.

As for the bans, Kindred was the one who took exception to them and thought they were doing more harm than good. For you to present the reversal of the bans as being solely due to you is ludicrous. You are well known for describing anyone who goes against you as a back stabber. You were greatly annoyed by Jeff's blog post. Personally I am quite sure that even if you later changed your mind, initially you were very much in favour of the bans.

Many of the past team members have started a great deal of negative propaganda against SMF and the management for taking the above actions.  Most of those who remain on the team are in agreement that the move was needed and while it is regretful to see so many leave our project, we have faith in our remaining team to move forward and continue doing what they do best.

The negative propaganda has not been against SMF at all. It has been solely against some members of the SMF management. As for "most of those who remain on the team", shall we tell people that this is now a team which is only half the size it was a couple of weeks ago? I mean your restructuring post boasted of improvements to workflow. Has your now-half-sized team made impressive reductions in the number of open support topics? In the number of unapproved mods and themes? In the number of unsolved bugs holding up the release of RC3?

Tell me again Amy, exactly why was this management action necessary?

Some people have been so swayed by the negative propaganda that they have become spiteful and in retaliation have removed themes and mods from our site.  I am very disappointed by this childish and spiteful act.  One of the SMF Team Members has gone so far as to purchase (as in paid real money for) some of the mods from those who originally authored them so those mods would still be available free to the community.

A couple of people initially removed their mods and themes from this site, while still making sure they were freely available to the users of SMF via downloads at other sites. In other words, the mods and themes were never made inaccessible. On the contrary, there were efforts made to ensure that they would remain accessible.

However, as far as I know all the mod and theme authors involved (and there were not many) reconsidered their action and have reinstated their mods and themes on this site, so to the best of my knowledge it is no longer an issue (if it ever really was).

akabugeyes has never asked me to see the books, therefore I have never told him no let alone refused repeatedly.  If he had asked, I would have granted his wish.

I can post screenshots from a non-public board of his request and your response.

I freely admit that I listened to the advice of our accountant suggesting that I take a salary to help reduce taxes.  That money is untouched in a private account (less the taxes that needed to be paid) and I have never even borrowed a dime of it.  After 18 months, I stopped taking that salary as it proved to be roughly equal in taxes and is truly a nightmare for bookkeeping.  I also want to state that it was never a secret... MANY people were aware of this.  If I really wanted to steal from the company, I surely would have kept it private.

It was put to a team vote as to whether or not you would be allowed to take a salary and the vote was resoundingly against the idea. When you say MANY people knew you were taking a salary it seems that what you really mean is that the vast majority of the team did not know, despite being asked to vote on it.

I apologize to everyone for not informing you sooner of the ongoing strife, but felt it would be inappropriate to point out the childish behavior of our past team members.

roflmao. That really is awesome. Thanks for the laugh.

[MultiformeIngegno]

I think that now in order to save the project you need to take "fast" decisions. In this situation you're losting - I think -a large amount of users...

My idea is to make new big elections open to both friends and team members.. resecting all the actual roles and let em be voted..

[Owdy]

I apologize to everyone for not informing you sooner of the ongoing strife, but felt it would be inappropriate to point out the childish behavior of our past team members.

Nice, attack is best defence, right? Amacythe, you need to leave this project, you know that. Telling lies wont fix that. Over 20 team members have left only in past year. If you have failed as leader, don't blame us for it. Take some responsibility and leave.

[Tristan Perry]

It's nice to see Amy post here.. it's a shame that her post contains a number of in-accuracies though.

I'm not interested in addressing her post point-by-point (mainly since I'd be wasting my time; dozens have tried and failed)

The short story for me is quite clear to see, and Amy's post sums that up.

Her post essentially says "I've done nothing wrong. It's the SMF friend's fault. I'm blameless. They are entirely in the wrong".

This is a bad attitude to take, and it's this (wrong) line of thinking that is really harming the SMF project. It's not bad luck that dozens of people have left the team over the past year or so, and then 33 people signed a joint letter calling for Amy and some others to resign from their post.

Edit: To SMF fans: all the SMF friends and most of the people on the SMF team care about SMF and want what's best for that. This is something to remember