Does the SMF Forum Need A Board for Spam only Discussions/Help?

[Arantor]

We're talking about valid opinions - not facts. You have the same problem as Mr. Phil - your desire is to mix the two words. Please stop this. I see I have much work to do here. No worries - I'll tough it out until you understand.

I find it amusing that I'm considered one of the most hardnosed people here and yet I can quite happily separate the two ^_^

If I said "Kindred sucks at telling members when their suggestions are being rejected" That's a valid opinion right?

* Arantor would say so.

You have too many per-conceived biases. We're going to have to work on those.

Remember what I said about shouting up from inside a well? Good luck.

[kat]

Depends how one defines "Valid", too.

Just thought I'd throw that into the mix.

Coz I can.

[Chalky]

Oh dear, now we have conflicting opinions on what constitutes an opinion 

I fear we may have hit another deadlock.

For what it's worth I state that an opinion cannot be valid if it is contradicted by fact.  Yes the two are very different, but it's important to recognise the effect they have on each other also.

[Arantor]

Oh dear, now we have conflicting opinions on what constitutes an opinion

I hit deadlocks in other things I do. My solution there cannot be applied here. My solution is simple, and brutal and involves killing processes.

For what it's worth I state that an opinion cannot be valid if it is contradicted by fact.  Yes the two are very different, but it's important to recognise the effect they have on each other also.

But the logical inverse of that is that an opinion can be valid without having to be supported by fact. The only constraint is that it merely cannot be contradicted by it, so anything else becomes an option.

[kat]

[Chalky]

But the logical inverse of that is that an opinion can be valid without having to be supported by fact. The only constraint is that it merely cannot be contradicted by it, so anything else becomes an option.

Not at all.  An animal can't be a dog if it isn't a mammal, but that doesn't imply that all mammals are dogs

[Arantor]

Not at all.  An animal can't be a dog if it isn't a mammal, but that doesn't imply that all mammals are dogs

Never argue logical fallacies with programmers.

[kat]

We then get into the debate about a "Fact".

Something that one man will claim as fact could be denied by another.

Proof, after all, is subjective.

[Arantor]

Is that the five minutes or the full half hour?

[Chalky]

Never argue logical fallacies with programmers.

I can argue all I like!  Of course, I won't necessarily win 

[kat]

Is that the five minutes or the full half hour?

Eloquently put, sirrah! (For those scratching their heads, do a Search for ""Monty python" argument")

[Arantor]

They even did a computer game.

[MrPhil]

That's cause you brits use way wierd spellings and phrasings...   we (muricuns) have the stranglehold on "proper english" these days!

We were doing our 'weird spellings and phrasings' before you were even a country.

Actually, American [English] has preserved some very old constructs that our cousins across the Pond dropped long ago.

• obsolete meanings such as "angry" for "mad"
• "en" form of past participles ("I had forgotten to mail the check"/"I had forgot to mail the cheque")
• past tense form of some verbs ("learned"/"learnt")
• retaining the definite article ("the injured were taken to the hospital"/"the injured were taken to hospital")
• ...and many more

I don't know when they diverged, and which was the original, but "collective nouns" are usually plural singular in American and singular plural in British ("IBM is going to announce..."/"IBM are going to announce...").

There is something to be said for Noah Webster's spelling rationalization (colour->color, theatre->theater, surprise->surprize, etc.). Interestingly, Firefox's built-in American English spell checker marks "color", "theater", and "surprise" as the correct spellings.

Correction: I did manage to swap "singular" and "plural". Sorry for any confusion this caused.

[kat]

They even did a computer game.

I might have to try and find that...

Seeing the image URL, I might not need to look far.

[kat]

"IBM is going to announce..."/"IBM are going to announce..."

That'd be ambiguous, here. "IBM is a company" and "IBM are a company" would both be acceptable. Although a company is singular, it's collective members make it plural.

I doubt an English teacher would mark either as being wrong, nowadays.

[MrPhil]

So... no, not every opinion is valid. Opinions which contradict the facts are, in fact, invalid.

Wrong. Every opinion is valid if it is stated as opinion and not fact.

Aye, but there's the rub. Opinions are too often stated as facts (which [facts] can be proven/disproven), rather than with "I believe" or "I understand" or "I think". Evidence of sloppy thinking.

[Arantor]

obsolete meanings such as "angry" for "mad"

Common in British English.

"en" form of past participles ("I had forgotten to mail the check"/"I had forgot to mail the cheque")

'had forgot'... hmmm, most people I know around here would just come out with 'I forgot', but 'I had forgotten' is not uncommon here either.

past tense form of some verbs ("learned"/"learnt")

Both are valid here, pretty much interchangeably so. Most people quite happily interchange, too.

retaining the definite article ("the injured were taken to the hospital"/"the injured were taken to hospital")

Both are valid and common enough here. A lot of the issue for us is whether there is qualification needed for it. If there is only one local hospital, the locals tend to refer to 'the hospital' because it carries a certain implication, whereas if there are multiple hospitals or there is ambiguity in which hospital is being referred to, it will simply be 'to hospital'.

but "collective nouns" are usually plural in American and singular in British ("IBM is going to announce..."/"IBM are going to announce...").

We would usually refer to IBM in the collective sense here because a company is a collective of people. But also because we would refer to a company with third-person-plural pronouns, i.e. 'they' which naturally encourages 'are'.

In American English, 'color' and 'theater' are spelled in that fashion. But I've never encountered 'surprize' being the correct spelling in either variation.



@ K@

I might have to try and find that...

Gimme a shout if you're having trouble finding it.

[kat]

Gotta get DOSBox sorted, first, I suspect...?

[Kindred]

ummmm.... learnt is not a valid word in American English as far as I am concerned. I would mark my students down if they used that.

Either I am confused with reading your statement or you have them reversed, because in American English, most collective nouns are singular when there is a word which represents the group as a whole
The class IS...
IBM IS...
The company IS
Congress IS

However, when it is a generic plural collective
the police ARE
the people ARE

[MrPhil]

"IBM is going to announce..."/"IBM are going to announce..."

That'd be ambiguous, here. "IBM is a company" and "IBM are a company" would both be acceptable. Although a company is singular, it's collective members make it plural.

I doubt an English teacher would mark either as being wrong, nowadays.

A British teacher would often mark the first one wrong (so I understand), and an American teacher would almost always mark the second one wrong. It's different standard usage in the two countries.