The one and ONLY thing SMF needs to be PERFECT.

[forsakenlad]

My position on SMF is not related to how I code. I code how I want to code, and if I want to use tables, when then, I'm going to use tables. No one tells me otherwise.

Exactly! We can't force a theme author to not use tables. But as a project we should follow standarts and we should go with semantics. Using tables for normal layout is like using normal variables for array data. But things like this take time as we have to design, write the HTML, test it out, rewrite the javascript and then test it out again.

Also I'd prefer the word semantic over tableless. Tableless designs are as bad as full table designs. Tables should be used where they should be, such as headings and divs and description lists and forms etc...

[Jumpmasterrt]

It drives from point A to point B. Sometimes that's all that's needed. Not every car has to look flashy and have all the gimicks.

I guess I didn't finish my point with that analogy, what I meant was, you buy that car so you CAN make it flashy and add your OWN gimmicks without having to undo someone elses.

Tables should be used where they should be....

... and divs where they need to be. That's my opinion as well.

[Marcus Forsberg]

Maybe no one cares about my opinion to this, but personaly I like divs better than tables, but ofcourse everyone has there opinion. Some like divs, some does not. So just let everyone use what they like!

[Dannii]

That "A" word...... is it AJAX?

No of course not. I meant accessibility. The SMF team has had at least five legally blind people on it. We should be making things as easy as we can for them, and for the other users of our software with disabilities, and for everyone else, and even non-human users. Guess which one of these has only one user demographic: semantically structured HTML or table layouts?

[forsakenlad]

and even non-human users.

Damn! Are you sayin that aliens are using SMF too?

[Dannii]

Well yes! Who else do you think runs Google?

[metallica48423]

* metallica48423 looks at all the international team members.

Yep

[Jumpmasterrt]

...... and even non-human users. Guess which one of these has only one user demographic: semantically structured HTML or table layouts?

"Non-human users"? I'm confused by what you mean with "one user demographic".

~ metallica48423, the international team members are affected by this how?

[metallica48423]

They aren't, it was a joke. 

[Jumpmasterrt]

They aren't, it was a joke. 

Oh, gotcha..... freakin' internet ruins humor all the time.

[Dannii]

...... and even non-human users. Guess which one of these has only one user demographic: semantically structured HTML or table layouts?

"Non-human users"? I'm confused by what you mean with "one user demographic".

I meant various software consumers of HTML. Search engines are the most well known, but there are many others too.
I was asking which supported only one slice or section of all the users of the web.

[ccbtimewiz]

...... and even non-human users. Guess which one of these has only one user demographic: semantically structured HTML or table layouts?

"Non-human users"? I'm confused by what you mean with "one user demographic".

I meant various software consumers of HTML. Search engines are the most well known, but there are many others too.
I was asking which supported only one slice or section of all the users of the web.

Eg, bots. o.o

[Jumpmasterrt]

Ahhhhh bots, I always forget about them.

If I understand your second question correctly...... none of them do because developers are also a web demographic. Therein lies the developing conundrum

[Dannii]

I don't think you quite get my point. Web developers are going to have as much trouble or success with a webpage as anyone else.

[Jumpmasterrt]

I don't think you quite get my point. Web developers are going to have as much trouble or success with a webpage as anyone else.

Right because not only are they users but they're writers too. So they have double the issues.

That's what I meant by 'conundrum'

So, it basically boils down to personal preference again. Both for the developer and the user. That's why SMF, vBulletin, PHPBB and others exist.

[ccbtimewiz]

I don't think you quite get my point. Web developers are going to have as much trouble or success with a webpage as anyone else.

Right because not only are they users but they're writers too. So they have double the issues.

That's what I meant by 'conundrum'

So, it basically boils down to personal preference again. Both for the developer and the user. That's why SMF, vBulletin, PHPBB and others exist.

This is reason to why web designers and web developers make more than one stylesheet. To suit the preferences of the user. 

[Jumpmasterrt]

This is reason to why web designers and web developers make more than one stylesheet. To suit the preferences of the user. 

And then people like us come along and debate over which one is better..... 100 years from now there'll be a thread just like this one somewhere.
OMG I'm laughing so hard.... I must be tired

[Dannii]

Right because not only are they users but they're writers too. So they have double the issues.

I don't understand what you mean, but it's not what I mean. As far as HTML goes, it's not personal preference. Some coding styles are less accessible than others. You can't decide for yourself what is (in)accessible for others.

[Jumpmasterrt]

I don't understand what you mean, but it's not what I mean. As far as HTML goes, it's not personal preference. Some coding styles are less accessible than others. You can't decide for yourself what is (in)accessible for others.

Why not? It's my site. Unless I'm getting paid to provide a service for someone else and they tell me what they want I can do what I want.
That is the beauty of the internet.

[Dannii]

You can do what you want yes. But that doesn't mean anything you do will be accessible.