I do not think i will support this community any longer.

[kat]

Most themes that I've seen, of late, are very similar to existing ones.


Thing is, when there are already loads of themes, making new, original ones must be difficult.

[Deaks]

Haven't you noticed a drastic decrease in ( good ) themes and mods ?

Haven't you noticed the drastic number of ( good ) themes and mods that are already out?

where since before the team stopped approving themes (id hat to see the backlog) there has been very few good quality themes, and I cant see that changing.  Since curve was released people have been makin variations not a unique style of theme and this is what is mainly looked for...

[KensonPlays]

Meanwhile... back on topic...


I too share the concern for future interest & support for SMF. But this is in no way to be mis-interpreted as a lack of respect or appreciation to those who develop and support this wonderful FREE product.

For many years now, I too have developed free material that is openly available to a large and dedicated community of users. I know how it feels when someone comes along and "holds you to account" for something they get for the mere price of the time it takes to download it.


But I do hope it is realized that a large percentage of the members here are admins/owners/operators  of existing forum-based  websites. And as such, they have on-line communities of their own that they must account to. Problems here at the Mother Site trickle downhill and have a far more reaching effect than might be realized.


Perspective Check: Okay, I do realize that the vast majority of SMF users probably run a specific 1.1.x version day in and day out and never have issues or come here for support.. or with dreams and hopes of finding new mods or themes. But that fact directly contradicts my current rant... so we'll just conveniently ignore it.


Unfortunately, as an admin of a site, I personally couldn't give a small rodent's buttocks about the internal issues, grievances & ego conflicts between the development/support staff members.  I am beholding to a community of my own and I must have confidence in the forum software that the community relies upon to interact with each other.

But with the once-promising new version stuck in beta for,  what?   3+ years?   ... coupled with the internal fracturing, waning support  and apparent interest... I have to be deeply concerned about the future viability of SMF forum software.

I can not afford to blindly dismiss it with a "Oh, they'll work it out and all will be swell!!" optimistic attitude. I know from experience that the things we are blindly optimistic about are usually the ones that come up from behind and take a chunk out of your rump.   


* In years past, I was often shocked at how quickly I would get a response to a support question posted here. Now, unfortunately... I am routinely shocked at not receiving a response at all...  or coming across numerous topics while searching for a solution where other members also asked for help and no one ever replied. I might expect that at a fringe, 3rd party support site for certain mods or themes... but not here at the Mother Site.


I truly hope the ramifications of allowing interest to wane for a such a popular and widely used product as SMF are fully understood by those who have the ability to control it.  Just as the members of the community I shepherd look up to me to keep it fresh and running smoothly, we admins here look up to you to do the same and keep making us look good to our flocks. 


And with that, I will now step off of my soap box and wait to incur the wrath of those with differing opinions.

But I would like to close with the statement that I feel SMF remains the best product of its type.  I fervently hope & pray that it will get back on track & remain a staple to admins of forum based websites... and that it also continues to be something that those who have developed and supported it will continue to enjoy their participation & take pride in the accomplishment.

Minus the developing of my own software, I agree with you completely!!

[Magestickown]

After recent "happenings" here i have the impression that you stabbed the community in it's back.

And that is certainly the end of any good software.

I honestly liked to use the smf forum software but
i think i will switch to another where the staff is not split in half.

I will see what comes out of this site in a few weeks/months.

It was good to know you guys.

But this is something not taken lightly!

COOL STORY BRO

[Pegasys]

where since before the team stopped approving themes (id hat to see the backlog) there has been very few good quality themes, and I cant see that changing.  Since curve was released people have been makin variations not a unique style of theme and this is what is mainly looked for...

My sentiments exactly.  Most of the (free) themes I've seen for 2.0 are just the basic curve theme with an altered CSS style sheet.  Of course, that's the main idea behind external CSS files is that the entire look of a site can be altered from one external file. But unless the theme author is a CSS whizz kid, the basic curve theme format remains unchanged.

No don't get me wrong... the basic curve theme is great.  A major improvement over the default theme of the 1.x versions. But I believe that the popularity of alternate themes is due to many site admins wanting to have a unique appearance for their site.  Truly, the most important aspect of any forum is it's content and it's members... but its still nice to have it visually unique in some way.

I personally feel that some of the best add-on themes I've seen is where the theme author went under-the-hood and also modified the template files to implement more than CSS-based color changes.  Move stuff around and add new things that give the theme a truly unique look & feel.

Maybe I looked in the wrong places... but I did not find that yet for 2.0. Perhaps that 2.0 is still in beta deters theme developers from committing wholeheartedly to it... but its been in beta for years. I was hoping to find more. 

* Similar opinion with mods, btw. Most seem to be the same 1.1.x mods updated to install on 2.0.  And after having experimented with many of those, I'm a bit shocked at how many don't install or function properly.



To be honest, for me the availability of themes is not a big issue because I take one basic one I like... recode the templates and CSS to make it truly unique... then make it the default and only theme available.  But my interest in extra themes and mods is that I feel they are an indicator of the success and continued interest in the core product... the forum software itself. When the availability of 3rd party extras & add-ons  diminishes, it could be interpreted that interest in the core product has as well.

[Kindred]

well, You can't blame the lack of mod updates on the customization team/approval queue.

Take the lack of updates up with the mod author him/herself. Updating Mods is NOT the responsibility of the MSF team(s).

[kat]

Updating Mods is NOT the responsibility of the MSF team(s).

Nor the SMF team...

[stog]

wow this is scrolling much better!

[Pegasys]

well, You can't blame the lack of mod updates on the customization team/approval queue.

Take the lack of updates up with the mod author him/herself. Updating Mods is NOT the responsibility of the MSF team(s).

I don't think anyone is blaming anyone (at least I'm not)... other than to accuse SMF of making a wonderful product. And, of course, the SMF support staff is throughly guilty of doing a great job.   

And certainly SMF is not responsible for 3rd party add-ons, mods and themes.  "3rd party" means just that.


The point I'm concurring with is that number & frequency of 3rd party add-ons... be it mods or themes or whatever... for any given product can be used as a barometer to that product's popularity an/or continued viability. This assumes, of course, that the product lends itself to add-ons, etc... which I believe virtually all forum software does... and SMF does quite readily.



 

[[unplugged]]

You cannot judge based on the number of new mods (or themes for that matter). There can be long periods of time where "everything has already been done". How do you create something for a product that already has everything? You wait to see what the next big fad is, and create accordingly. There will be low points in new features, which is to be expected. I can remember plenty of times long before the current strife of going days, even weeks, without any new or interesting mods. It happens.

I think the lack of new non-variant themes is due to two things: the new theme smell of Curve hasn't quite worn off for many, so they are content with using it, and, the whole sprite structure of the images may be new territory for theme makers. I personally know of one who struggled to accept it, but has since overcome that.

It just so happens that things have slowed down with customization around the same time as some internal bickering. Ride the wave. Compare today with 2 or 3 weeks ago. Things are slowly getting back to normal.

[bullbreedluverz]

think some people simply dont realise the work involved in making and updating themes and mods - personally ive only released 2 Curve based themes simply because of Rc3 being due soon - the update from smf from rc1.2 to rc2 left me with about 20 themes to update before i could even start on Curve based themes and compared to some theme makers im no where near as prolific with themes as they have been. the changes between core rc1.2 to core rc2 basically ment EVERY core theme needed rewriting, it werent fact of add a few changelog edits as the css files for rc2 had completely changed from rc1.2

now we have RC3 on the horizon so here comes the updates again, go look how many themes some others have to there names and then consider how much time each 1 of theme existing themes will take to update - now oif people were being as prolific with curve based themes then all them would need to be added to the already available themes that need updating

the change from rc2 to rc3 seems to be on the cards much sooner than the change from rc1.2 to rc2 was so it is only sensible to wait till after that to make new themes

also what most people are overlooking is that RC2/RC3 are RC's - development software not recommended for live production sites and only really ment for testing so some people arent updating mods/themes or making new mods/themes for these development versions of smf and are waiting for the final release of 2.0

what a lot of people are complaining about is a lack of themes and mods for a version of software that isnt even a final release, that isnt ment for a live site and is only really available for testing and bug fixes and as mod/theme authors have no idea exactly what changes will be made from version to version - basically people are complaining that why arent mod/theme authors making loads of mods and themes in the knowledge that soon they may not work and may need completely rewriting depending on future changes that are made to smf updates

oh and lets remember something else here, mod and theme authors do so in there own free time and make these smf addons available free of charge through this site so you are complaining about things that people do out of kindness stating why arent they working harder to make this things for us now, we want them now, do it now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bloc]

Quite right, it does take some time to create, be it "simple" or "complex" themes.

However, new themes now looking alike is sadly true. I for one will at least try steer away from that, but actually same thing happened last time a default theme(now called Core) was released, although this time its even more. Of course also becasue the Curve theme was meant to use much more CSS and depend less on tempalte changes. But forum tempaltes are complex beasts(or have been) so even the CSS got complex lol.

An additional trouble is that most budding theme designers don't want to mess with PHP in templates too much, and only those that do, could possibly rewrite them so they at least look totally different. Personally I wouldn't trade of that power of PHP for anything..but it has also made it worse when people want those 100+ mods to work one very theme(mods can change templates too). Meaning designers hesitate to change any more than the index one.

Much work should go into figuring that out, but I guess now that is up to third-party devs/designers.

[Kindred]

and then there is the fact that some of us LIKE the Curve theme and want to use it with the color variations.

Actually, my "dream" theme at the moment would be a curve theme with the color switcher built in, like Bloc did for Helios.

[bullbreedluverz]

Actually, my "dream" theme at the moment would be a curve theme with the color switcher built in, like Bloc did for Helios.

IMO Curve should of been released as a multi-color theme from the start with a selection of colors that would appeal to most - it just seems logical to me to make a default them that as standard, with no editing required, has a selection of colors to make it more appealing and flexible as a Default theme

[bloc]

It was more of a size consideration than anything else, as I recall.

[青山 素子]

An additional trouble is that most budding theme designers don't want to mess with PHP in templates too much, and only those that do, could possibly rewrite them so they at least look totally different. Personally I wouldn't trade of that power of PHP for anything..but it has also made it worse when people want those 100+ mods to work one very theme(mods can change templates too). Meaning designers hesitate to change any more than the index one.

With CSS for layout, you can now change the look of things considerably without ever touching the template code.

[bullbreedluverz]

With CSS for layout, you can now change the look of things considerably without ever touching the template code.

well i wouldnt say considerably as it will still be curves layout just with a new color scheme and maybe a few image changes (a variant in other words)

[Bikken]

I can only speak for myself and i think i can say that none of our themes look anywhere near Core/Curve. Like Bloc, we as well always try to bring something different/unique.

As for updating... A lot of work indeed and it may have took us a while but our themes were eventually always updated for any SMF 2 version. Starting from Beta1 till the latest RC 2.

As for rewriting template files... It's possible to rewrite any (or all) template files but as Bloc said, it will be a nightmare for people using many different mods. And that's the reason we always coded as less custom files as possible, especially for our free themes. We did try a few different layouts for our premium themes though.

IMHO a custom theme should look unique yes, but it should not bring a user into trouble.

[青山 素子]

With CSS for layout, you can now change the look of things considerably without ever touching the template code.

well i wouldnt say considerably as it will still be curves layout just with a new color scheme and maybe a few image changes (a variant in other words)

Obligatory link: css Zen Garden.

Many of the designs are really nice variations on the default layout, but you'll also find some awesome changed looks like What Lies Beneath, Self-Growth, and Radio Zen. All of those switch to a horizontal-scrolling style.

I'm considering making an updated comic theme for SMF (there was an old 1.0 one) to demonstrate that the look can be changed a good bit with just CSS. Given my time is usually occupied, I'm not sure if I'll be able to do so.

Edit: Found another awesome Zen Garden design: Punkass. Oh, Wiggles the Wonderworm, too.

Both linked from 15 Greatest Page Designs from CSS Zen Garden

[bloc]

ehm, Motoko-chan, its true CSS can change a lot..but if you haven't actually tried, it seems easier than it really is. Thats becasue both the code and the css are highly optimised for Curve. I made several things with my first Curve markup, that later was removed, changed or simplified. Things that *I* found would be useful, to change things in custom themes. Its a carefully built theme now, change too much of the css, and things start to stop working here and there.

CSSzengarden is a great example, but it does several things Curve doesn't: adds empty markup which css can hang onto, no use of tables(which although can be appropriate for some SMF sections,are impossible to change much ), using "independent" markup(because its essentially a blog layout, where things can line up after each other and read well, just as much as reading it with sidebars) whereas SMF has intricate layouts with floats within sidebars/floats(example: Display area) that doesn't really work that well just placed after each other...

Point is, to have that freedom Wordpress/CSSzengarden has with CSS, you have to simplify further and actually change the UI of the forum templates even.

This isn't the fault of SMF devs really, as the goal was semantic theme + CSS based. There was no agenda for making it past that then.