I do not think i will support this community any longer.

[Pegasys]

First off Bloc...   please allow me to say that I have always liked your stuff.  Always well done. Very innovative and well supported. My respect & appreciation for your efforts knows no bounds. 

My current site uses modified versions of Tiny Portal with the Amber theme. They are modified not because there was anything lacking with them straight out of the box... but only because I like to personalize things.

I installed v0.97 of Tiny Portal and my mistake was to not check back for the various updates and improvements you released. So over time, I went "under-the-hood" and fixed things myself. Then fixed things I broke when fixing things ....   and added features and changes to personalize it further. Of course, this took the auto-update option out of the equation.  My bad. But a valuable learning experience.

Point is, to have that freedom Wordpress/CSSzengarden has with CSS, you have to simplify further and actually change the UI of the forum templates even.

I agree wholeheartedly with you.  Some of the best themes I have seen (or at least that appealed to me personally) were themes like Amber where you went into the templates and actually created a whole new and refreshing, custom  look and feel beyond what could be done just with CSS modifications.

[[unplugged]]

Never underestimate the power of CSS.  You can change the entire look of SMF2 fairly easily merely by using CSS and images, no altering any template files at all. I'm not talking about just coloring in another Curve variant, but a nice new refreshing look. Obviously, even more customization can be done by modifying template files, but it's not 100% necessary.

I still feel as though potential theme authors are struggling to wrap their creative minds around sprites.

[Arantor]

SunKing: Quite possibly. The idea of CSS sprites is rather new but also very old; the technique goes back to long before the current iteration of programmers and designers, when everything was at a premium.

One thing I will say, the theme we have on simpledesk.net isn't as bold as it could be, but it's more bold than many I've personally seen. That was done in basically half a day.

[[unplugged]]

Sprites are almost as old as I am.  But it can take a bit more work in laying out the image and the corresponding CSS than the pre-Curve themes.

That's a nice clean theme at simpledesk, btw.

[ML]

Themes and Mods, Themes and Mods. You bunch of cry babies. Do you want a good forum program or just something that looks pretty on the damn internet?

Instead of worrying so much about stupid Themes and Mods, why don't you try and be thankful that you have people like these guys who are willing to take time out of THEIR days to make this thing for you.

Take all the time you need to do whatever you need to do folks. I am still using 1.1.11 with the ORIGINAL theme and actually use it as a MESSAGE board and not a statement about looking cool..

Themes and Mods. Good God people, get a life.

[catfished]

Themes and Mods, Themes and Mods. You bunch of cry babies. Do you want a good forum program or just something that looks pretty on the damn internet?

Instead of worrying so much about stupid Themes and Mods, why don't you try and be thankful that you have people like these guys who are willing to take time out of THEIR days to make this thing for you.

Take all the time you need to do whatever you need to do folks. I am still using 1.1.11 with the ORIGINAL theme and actually use it as a MESSAGE board and not a statement about looking cool..

Themes and Mods. Good God people, get a life.

OMG! You're right, SMF is a message board. Well said ML.

[Arantor]

1.1.11 with the original theme isn't bad. I still use that myself in one place.

But for some people, they have needs other than just a basic, functional message board. They want to be able to foster a community about their respective collective discussion matters and for that sometimes needs mods and themes. Mods can make it a lot easier to manage, themes can provide a point for discussion or simply make it easier to navigate depending on your audience. Also adds atmosphere which for some communities can be great.

For one community I'm part of, we're using the forum as a place for discussing the project we're working on (which isn't SimpleDesk). Is using the default theme, but it also has Project Tools installed to help me manage outstanding issues, a shoutbox for the team to discuss matters quickly and so on. Depends on the community and how far the software can go to help you make that community stronger.

tl:dr; sometimes a basic functional message board is all you need for a successful community. Sometimes you need more. Themes and mods help you achieve that.


Oh, and before you take me to task for wasting time writing mods, I did also waste time helping fix bugs in SMF itself, so yeah, go figure. Writing mods helped me do that.

[[unplugged]]

I totally agree that function is far more important than fashion. I also agree that there is far too much whining about not enough new mods and themes. However, there is really nothing wrong with wanting to make it look or function to fit your site's needs either.

If you take two SMF1.1.11 sites, both focusing on underwater basket weaving, one with the default theme, and one with a nicely crafted custom theme related to the site content, I'll give you one guess which one ultimately grabs more traffic.

[Cassiel]

If you take two SMF1.1.11 sites, both focusing on underwater basket weaving, one with the default theme, and one with a nicely crafted custom theme related to the site content, I'll give you one guess which one ultimately grabs more traffic.

+1

Themes make your forum look unique and help try to separate it from the rest of the pack. If everyone went around with the same theme for their forum then you're not really letting your forum take notice. Which ultimately helps with getting traffic to your site.

And mods help with being able to maintain your forum. Sometimes your forum is geared towards a certain aspect that makes it need a feature to get to where it needs to be. Take, for example, a tech new forum. The articles mod would allow the users to easily review all of the tech articles that the site has posted. Which helps to keep the traffic that your pretty theme has cultivated.

I'm kind of just rehashing what SunKing and Arantor have said, but it's important to show that themes and mods are needed even in the smallest way. They give your forum a unique thumbprint which allows it a chance to grow.

[Pegasys]

I totally agree that function is far more important than fashion.

I think the order of priority for any forum site is:

1. Content
2. Function
3. Fashion (Visual appeal)

The content of the site is what its really all about. The reason for its existence. All the function & fashion in the world won't make the forum popular if there isn't anything of interest there.  Of course, you can't present that content without function.

SMF provides that basic function.... as well as many features beyond just "basic".  It reliable, easy to use and very popular with folks that belong to numerous forums and are familiar with other forum software.

But as you stated, the more visually appealing of two otherwise equal forums will likely attract and hold more participants. There are forums... that are about forums. This site is one, obviously. But most are about other areas of interest  and it helps to have a variety of themes available that are more suited to those interests.

Where you probably would not want a dark & mystical theme for a business or development related forum... you also probably would not want a light or cheerful theme for a forum that is about something dark & mystical. The theme can set the tone & mood of the forum... and thus affect the content that is added to it.

I consider the current 2.0 default Curve theme as the perfect neutral theme.  Its offensive to no one.... and well suited for many forums just as it is. But I also consider it to be a blank canvas... just waiting for some paint. 

[Antechinus]

With CSS for layout, you can now change the look of things considerably without ever touching the template code.

well i wouldnt say considerably as it will still be curves layout just with a new color scheme and maybe a few image changes (a variant in other words)

Obligatory link: css Zen Garden.

Many of the designs are really nice variations on the default layout, but you'll also find some awesome changed looks like What Lies Beneath, Self-Growth, and Radio Zen. All of those switch to a horizontal-scrolling style.

I'm considering making an updated comic theme for SMF (there was an old 1.0 one) to demonstrate that the look can be changed a good bit with just CSS. Given my time is usually occupied, I'm not sure if I'll be able to do so.

Edit: Found another awesome Zen Garden design: Punkass. Oh, Wiggles the Wonderworm, too.

Both linked from 15 Greatest Page Designs from CSS Zen Garden

Stop talking about it and do it. There's little point in linking people to the Zen Garden ad infinitum. As Bloc says, Curve is a lot more complex than the layouts they are playing with. A lot of Curve's CSS is finely balanced and spring loaded. You can change things but you have to know what you are doing or the whole thing may explode in your face. Basic colour changes are easy. Layout changes are possible but not nearly so easy, and even then there a lot of things you cannot do just by changing the css. Make no mistake here: custom themes are still going to require custom templates.

[bloc]

Yup, i am working on a Facebook look-alike and it would not be possible without changing the templates.(I don't mean color-like FB theme as some already have amde, but using the actual way of displaying things like FB does) I find that fun lol, but not all will see it that way - but my point is: to make such a theme just by changing CSS from Curve theme is simply not possible.

Earlier on I started a project which change how you write templates and at the same time support mods trying to modify it, but its been dormant for various reasons. I do like to pick it up again, partly because my goal with it has shifted focus.

[JPA]

I totally agree with Royalduke.  Come on people SMF still rocks!

[madfitz]

Haven't you noticed a drastic decrease in ( good ) themes and mods ?

You prefer mods and themes to come first over RC3? 

RC3? Pfft.

Go to the download page and see the message, "Note: As this is in development, we do not recommend running SMF 2.0 RC3 on a production site."

I don't run RC3. I run a production site using 1.1.11. RC releases don't interest me because they are simply testing platforms in my eyes. If ever SMF 2.0 goes final I might switch to it. What goes on with RC releases is backroom stuff to my mind.

I'm interested in here and now. 1.1.11 is the current stable version so that's all that matters.

[Kindred]

well, I have been running 2.0 on a LARGE production site since RC1.

[TurtleKicker]

And there lies the serious disconnect and divide between what users are officially told about SMF2 in one place, versus what they're officially told in another.

Basically, if you complain about mods only supporting SMF2, or only being updated for SMF2, or missing features/functionality/bugs in SMF1 that exist/fixed in SMF2, the official line is "SMF2 beta/RC is being used on lots of production sites no problem".

But if you complain about bugs in SMF2, or how themes and mods need updates every minor iteration, or how you have to do a full all-files reinstall every new beta/RC versus the little update via package manager, you're referred to the boilerplate "we do not recommend running SMF 2.0 RC3 on a production site".

SMF is not known for a consistent message, unfortunately.

[Kindred]

there is no disconnect nor any inconsistency in the statements.

SMF 2.0RC3 *IS* RC...   and, unless you know what you are doing, it is recommended that you use the stable release. That being said...  RC is fairly stable and many of us (who know what we are doing) use it.

We have never (and will likely never) released "update packs" for beta or RC versions, because they usually involve a significant number of changes, and it is better for our developers to spend their time fixing and tweaking to get the final release than to spend time making an update package.
Again, it comes down to "if you know what you are doing..."   because, quite honestly, it only takes me between 1-2 hours to do a full upgrade from RC to RC or RC to final, including the (re)installation of about 20 mods.

As for the backports of mods or features...   SMF 1.1.x is stable but is being replaced. I fully understand mod authors not wanting to waste time backporting...   and 1.1.x has been feature fixed for a long time now. additional releases in the 1.1.x series have only been security related.   New features belong in the NEW version.

[bullbreedluverz]

ive never found any confusion or contradiction - i used 1.1.x and started running a 2.0 (beta) test site to learn how 2.0 works to be competent to use it and then switched exclusively to 2.0

if you dont feel competent with smf/2.0 then dont use 2.0 - yes it does say beta/rc's aren't recommended for live production sites but that comes down to really your competence with using smf software and whether you have enough knowledge to work with a software that may have issues/problems/bugs - if not then go for the stable release

most the time people saying 2.0 is used on live sites that ive seen is usually from members and not an official statement by SMF so saying people say ya can use it isnt SMF being contradictory or giving mixed official statements as SMF has no such announcements to say "SMF2 beta/RC is being used on lots of production sites no problem".

[pauska]

Accept the fact that this is free software.

If you don't, head over to vbulletin and pay licenses - atleast then you have some feet to complain on.

[perplexed]

I take it the OP has left already since he hasn't posted for a few pages and we are all talking about themes and CSS lol

"come back OP"  "don't leave us"