Does the SMF Forum Need A Board for Spam only Discussions/Help?

[Kindred]

ah. yes.. provoing that I got confused by your phrasing.

IBM *IS* a company.

The company may be made up of employees, but the company it an entity on its own, with or without the employees.

[xrunner]

Oh dear, now we have conflicting opinions on what constitutes an opinion 

I fear we may have hit another deadlock.

For what it's worth I state that an opinion cannot be valid if it is contradicted by fact.  Yes the two are very different, but it's important to recognise the effect they have on each other also.

'cat - let me try to 'splain to you. See if this makes sense OK?

People are applying the term "valid" to "opinion" in an improper manner and that's where the problem is.

A "valid" opinion simply means this -

That it is in fact the opinion of a human being and it is not a lie that it is their opinion.

That's all it means.

The only thing that makes it an invalid opinion is if it was not really their opinion.

For example:

If I was to tell you I thought the Moon was made of green cheese, and I was not lying that it really is my opinion, then it's a valid opinion of me, a human being.

It doesn't have a flip to do with the truth of it all.

If I was to tell you I thought the Moon was made of green cheese, and I was lying that it really is my opinion (in other words I really thought it was made of rocks), then it's an invalid opinion of me, a human being. It's invalid because it's not really my opinion. NOT because it is or isn't factually true.

Does that make better sense?

We're still not past the point where people can untie the word valid from their other notions of what it means with regard to an opinion.

A valid fact is not the same entity as a valid opinion!

[kat]

Some regard "Company", even in the commercial sense, as "A group of". That's why it's become ambiguous.

"Learnt" is the norm, here.

[MrPhil]

ummmm.... learnt is not a valid word in American English as far as I am concerned. I would mark my students down if they used that.

Either I am confused with reading your statement or you have them reversed, because in American English, most collective nouns are singular when there is a word which represents the group as a whole

I think you misread my post. I was comparing and contrasting American/British English practice. Americans would say "IBM is..." and the British would say "IBM are...". Sure, there are some collective nouns that Americans use the plural for ("the police are..."). "Learnt" is British usage.

Update: I see your post saying you were confused.

[Kindred]

xrunner....

no, I was not confusing opinion with fact.
You are confused with my statements because you don't recognize that the only opinions I consider valid are ones that are based on fact.

In other words, it's not the word Opinion which is being miscontrued, it is the word VALID.   Valid = True/Backed by facts. Invalid = untrue/contradicted by facts.

[xrunner]

xrunner....

no, I was not confusing opinion with fact.
You are confused with my statements because you don't recognize that the only opinions I consider valid are ones that are based on fact.

In other words, it's not the word Opinion which is being miscontrued, it is the word VALID.   Valid = True/Backed by facts. Invalid = untrue/contradicted by facts.

For pete's sake! You've been looking at too much php.

I just effing explained it and you still don't get it. A valid opinion has nothing to f*cking do with the truth or facts!

You are so bent on proving me wrong that you are taking leave of logic. If you can't understand what I wrote up above then take a break and think about it.

Stop mis-applying "valid" when used with opinion!

Good grief man.

[Kindred]

I am not misapplying it. I explained my reasoning and logic.

My use of valid as "true/backed by facts" is independent of the word opinion.

[Chalky]

xrunner - You and I clearly have different ideas about what constitutes a "valid opinion".  As per the articles I linked to earlier in the thread, which I hoped would explain my position better than I do, a "valid" opinion is one that can be justified, i.e. supported by evidence or at least argued for with sound logical reasoning.

A person has the right to hold whatever opinion they like, but that doesn't imply a right to be respected for that opinion.  If a person holds an opinion that cannot be justified or that is disprovable by fact, then they cannot complain if others mock them for it   

[xrunner]

I am not misapplying it. I explained my reasoning and logic.

My use of valid as "true/backed by facts" is independent of the word opinion.

Valid as applied to an opinion simply means it's not a lie - that it is truthfully the opinion of a person - a valid opinion.

That's all it means.

It has nothing to do with any facts.

You are wrong.

[xrunner]

xrunner - You and I clearly have different ideas about what constitutes a "valid opinion".  As per the articles I linked to earlier in the thread, which I hoped would explain my position better than I do, a "valid" opinion is one that can be justified, i.e. supported by evidence or at least argued for with sound logical reasoning.

If a belief - an valid opinion - is THEN justified later - it becomes knowledge, truth, a fact.

Two different steps and things.

A person has the right to hold whatever opinion they like, but that doesn't imply a right to be respected for that opinion.  If a person holds an opinion that cannot be justified or that is disprovable by fact, then they cannot complain if others mock them for it   

Again, you are really getting away from the core problem of what is a valid opinion. A valid opinion is a truthfully stated opinion of a person. Nothing more or less.

[Chalky]

A "valid" opinion simply means this -

That it is in fact the opinion of a human being and it is not a lie that it is their opinion.

That's all it means.

The only thing that makes it an invalid opinion is if it was not really their opinion.

xrunner - may I have permission to use this quote on ChalkCat to see what they think?

[Kindred]

Sorry,,, but YOU are wrong, (in my opinion and in the opinion of logical arguments everywhere)

While you are ENTITLED to your own opinion, that does not automatically make your opinion VALID.



Once again... you assume that valid = not a lie. that is the root of your confusion.
valid = "TRUE/backed by facts" (which is different from "not a lie")

by your definition, yes, everyone could have a valid opinion. However, your definition is incorrect
let's look it up
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/valid

1: having legal efficacy or force; especially: executed with the proper legal authority and formalities <a valid contract>
2 a: well-grounded or justifiable : being at once relevant and meaningful <a valid theory>
   b: logically correct <a valid argument> <valid inference>
3: appropriate to the end in view : effective <every craft has its own valid methods>
4 of a taxon: conforming to accepted principles of sound biological classification

this is much closer to what I have been defining it as than what you have...
especially number 2 b.
even number 3, which is the weakest statement is not the same as your "not a lie"

[xrunner]

A "valid" opinion simply means this -

That it is in fact the opinion of a human being and it is not a lie that it is their opinion.

That's all it means.

The only thing that makes it an invalid opinion is if it was not really their opinion.

xrunner - may I have permission to use this quote on ChalkCat to see what they think?

Sure. 

But I'm getting kinda overloaded with all this, I can barely support myself without more help.

Also, keep in mind that even if all your members disagree with my assertion, that does not make it wrong. Keep in mind the logical fallacies - namely that the number of people who believe in x doesn't mean x is correct. My explanations are here for you to copy if you wish, and I'll log in if you want me to support them more.

Thanks for the interest in this topic.

[xrunner]

Sorry,,, but YOU are wrong, (in my opinion and in the opinion of logical arguments everywhere)

While you are ENTITLED to your own opinion, that does not automatically make your opinion VALID.

You are misunderstanding what the word valid means with opinion. As I've explained over and over. If you can't learn this I suggest you go support the software elsewhere and stop hounding me with you wrong ideas.

[Kindred]

while that may be a logical fallacy to assume that...       that does not mean that everything that many people believe falls into the fallacy.

I have given PROOF based on the definition of the word VALID (which is what I am focused on. You are still obsessing over the word opinion. )



Wait...   How did I misinterpret the dictionary definition of the word valid (quoted)

definition 2 a and b clearly support my argument and defend my interpretation of the word.

You have explained over and over, but your explanations are based on the incorrect definition of the word!


Even better... form further down the definition/dictionary page:

valid, sound, cogent, convincing, telling mean having such force as to compel serious attention and usually acceptance. valid implies being supported by objective truth or generally accepted authority...

See that last sentence?  SUPPORTED BY OBJECTIVE TRUTH....

anyone can have an opinion. That does not make their opinion valid.

[xrunner]

by your definition, yes, everyone could have a valid opinion.

Right! Now you getting it!

However, your definition is incorrect
let's look it up

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/valid

1: having legal efficacy or force; especially: executed with the proper legal authority and formalities <a valid contract>
2 a: well-grounded or justifiable : being at once relevant and meaningful <a valid theory>
   b: logically correct <a valid argument> <valid inference>

this is much closer to what I have been defining it as than what you have...
especially number 2 b.
even number 3, which is the weakest statement is not the same as your "not a lie"

No dear, you are again misinterpreting things.

Yes 2b does apply. What does it mean with respect to "valid opinion"?

It means that it's logically correct that an opinion that is not a lie is a valid opinion. That's what the "logically correct" part of means, that's why it's a valid opinion!

It does not mean in this case that the opinion is based on an external fact.

******ing meow man!

[Chalky]

Thank you   I know some of my members will disagree with you but I'm interested to see how they present their disagreement.  I'm also very curious to see whether any of them will agree with you.  Do please feel free to pop in 

[kat]

Heh... innit funny how people use "Opinion", when they mean "Belief".

http://mnsho.com/tag/opinion <--- Worth reading, this rant.

[Kindred]

dude...  I understood your side of the argument ages ago.   I dismissed it because it is incorrect.
I know you're never going to come around, but I'll try one more time.

*YOU* are the one whose interpretation is missing the point. VALID IMPLIES BEING BACKED BY OBJECTIVE TRUTH.

Logically correct != (in any way, shape or form) "not a lie"

K@...   yup, that actually backs my argument even further, if you focus on the opinion side of the phrase.

let's go so far as to look for the whiole phrase...
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_a_valid_opinion

An opinion is someone's thoughts and feelings on a subject. That opinion is said to be "valid" if there is good reasoning behind it, or if it's understandable that someone would feel that way.

People often say "that's a valid opinion, but ..." to show they don't agree but they don't mean any insult to the other person and they're not wanting to get into a heated argument.

Of course, whether someone's opinion is valid or not is also a matter of opinion.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101009130358AAbNeFd

Difference between "valid opinion" and "invalid opinion"?

My teacher told me that a valid opinion requires critical thought and analysis. Those are the ones that people have the right to and that garner respect. Opinions based solely on emotion with no fact are invalid and people have no right to force others to respect them.

and another:
http://mrshatzi.com/files/valid-opinions.pdf
and one more...
http://classroom.jc-schools.net/waltkek/FourthGCompU3W2.ppt





in other words... although just because a lot of people believe something does not make it correct might be true...   when there is a prepoderance of evidence, it leads to the conclusion that those people might actually be correct.

[xrunner]

Thank you   I know some of my members will disagree with you but I'm interested to see how they present their disagreement.  I'm also very curious to see whether any of them will agree with you.  Do please feel free to pop in 

I've gotta take a break for a while, I can't hunt and peck type much longer.

VALID IMPLIES BEING BACKED BY OBJECTIVE TRUTH.

Yes and the objective truth in this case is that the opinion is not a lie, that is the only objective truth regarding the opinion of a person. That's why it's valid opinion if not a lie.

Kindred, I am not playing games with this definition. It's simply that the semantics are such that I believe you are not used to having the words applied together. In this case valid simply means it's a truthfully stated opinion and not a lie. It does not mean it's going to be proven factually true later.

So I'll check back in a few hours.

Peace.